Bring back Turn Based "No Time Limit + Friends Only"

[Damac]

No, ELO is not the issue at all, [...]

So what other issue do you have then??

Yes, it wasn't the initial cause for the change. But it is the main thing left to discuss about regarding the question if NTL ranked should be reintroduced or not. Almost your whole post is about Elo. So what is the matter?

Wut? Yes, of course the post was explaining why ELO is not an issue (and thus should not have played into the decision to make this change)... in response to you saying "the ELO topic is the entire issue [...] just play training mode".

What's the matter is that a commonly used function of the site was removed, and people are trying to politely point out why this was a mistake and hoping that the functionality will be restored. There is no upvote system in the forums, so the only way to help support viewpoints that one agrees with is to share one's own viewpoint, and so here I am.

[dschingis27]

ELO is something worth discussing, but is entirely a separate problem from the NTL issue. People want to play games with their friends without being unnecessarily penalized, [...]

The Elo topic is the entire issue, there is nothing else to discuss (maybe gift points, I give you that). If you only want to play with your friends without being unnecessarily penalized, just play training mode.

It is pretty clear from the quotes and the posts they are from how I meant "entire issue". I meant it is the entire issue people can complain about (issue = the absence of Elo in NTL games). There is no separate NTL issue that user Nullzone wanted to make up. The entire main reason for the existence of this thread is that some people want Elo-ranked NTL games back (=entire issue). But the discussion in this thread often derailed into other things, which is stupid.

[cigma]

Just try it out yourself and you will see that training games started from the turn-based lobbies are usual turn-based training games without time limit (except for the 40 days limit of course). Since it's training mode, there is absolutely no risk involved for your reputation if you just try it out.

I have now created a bug report for this.
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=79441

I think this would not solve any problems, but multiply them!

For now, training mode is declared as "real time", and so people expect to play this as a real time game without clock. Following your suggestion there were very different expectations about when the next turn should be played - even if you distinguish between "real time training mode" and "turn-based training mode". Some players will expect several turns a day and others one turn every month. That's why turn-based in normal mode has several different options clearly declared! I guess a lot of "turn-based training mode" games would be canceled for this reason and BGA would have to handle a lot of complaints about it!

So should there be "turn-based training mode" with defined time options? This is a contradiction in itself, because training mode is meant to be played without time limit!

[dschingis27]

For now, training mode is declared as "real time", [...]

It is only "declared" like this in the old lobby which I think the admins do not care about anymore. It is very clearly not meant to be declared like this. The training mode in the turn-based lobby works like it always worked, providing you a (practically) true no time limit experience (up to 40 days) with the advantage of the turn-based mode that you can play several such games at the same time. So that is why I suggest a clarification in my bug report. I have no idea when this misleading description of "Real-time game" crept in but it doesn't make any sense to me in that place.

Following your suggestion there were very different expectations about when the next turn should be played - even if you distinguish between "real time training mode" and "turn-based training mode".

It literally says, "no time limit per turn, no penalties". So obviously I would expect a lot of time to make moves, basically no limit (huh?). What else should I expect? It is excruciatingly clear also in the new lobby, that the Training mode is potentially slower than the slowest time limit setting.

I also do not like that there is a "real time training mode" that you start from the real-time lobby (game stays open up to 4 hours without any move and you cannot play any other real-time game at the same time) and a "turn-based training mode" you start from the turn-based lobby (game open up to 40 days without move and you can play as many games you like). But there is! My suggestion in the bug report does not solve that but would at least make it clearer that you don't start a real-time game (supposed to be played within a few hours) from the turn-based lobby (where everything you can start and join is supposed to be played in days and weeks).

Some players will expect several turns a day and others one turn every month. That's why turn-based in normal mode has several different options clearly declared!
I guess a lot of "turn-based training mode" games would be canceled for this reason and BGA would have to handle a lot of complaints about it!

If someone prefers regularity in the moves played, then they should choose a time limit option of course. Training mode is still meant to be for friends.

So should there be "turn-based training mode" with defined time options? This is a contradiction in itself, because training mode is meant to be played without time limit!

Where on earth was this suggested?? Certainly not by me. How do you come up with this? Actually, training mode with time options might even be something to consider but that does certainly not belong in the current thread or has any relation to my bug report.

[cigma]

For now, training mode is declared as "real time", [...]

It is only "declared" like this in the old lobby which I think the admins do not care about anymore. It is very clearly not meant to be declared like this.

It is declared as "real time" in the old and the new lobby. How do you come to your conclusions? Just because "you think so"?

Following your suggestion there were very different expectations about when the next turn should be played - even if you distinguish between "real time training mode" and "turn-based training mode".

It literally says, "no time limit per turn, no penalties". So obviously I would expect a lot of time to make moves, basically no limit (huh?). What else should I expect? It is excruciatingly clear also in the new lobby, that the Training mode is potentially slower than the slowest time limit setting.

And yet it is also clearly declared as "real time", and therefore that is what most players expect. If the other players didn't play their turns as in a (slow) real time game, I would surely quit the game. Many players (including me) didn't even know that it is possible to create a game in training mode as "turn-based".

Training mode is still meant to be for friends.

How do you come to the conclusion that training mode is "meant to be for friends"? As it's name says, it is meant for training, it makes no difference if the players are friends or not.

Also every game in alpha and beta state has to be played in training mode (You could say this is not training for players but for the game itself.). How could BGA ever finish testing an alpha or beta game, if players take up to 40 days for each turn? Here you can read more about this problem: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28837

Thus I consider the possibility to create a "turn-based" game in training mode as the bug to be addressed.

[dschingis27]

It is declared as "real time" in the old and the new lobby.

Why do you keep making things up? There is no "declaration" of "Real-time game" in the new lobby. There it only says, "No rankings, no time limit, no penalties."

And I am convinced that it is an unintentional description in the old lobby because the description does not reflect the functionality. You do not get a real-time game when you start training games from the turn-based lobby. Also it doesn't make any sense to allow real-time games started from the turn-based lobby. So this is to me the most clearest of bugs there can be (description unequal to functionality).

How could BGA ever finish testing an alpha or beta game, if players take up to 40 days for each turn?

Well, the 40 days "turn-based training mode" is nothing new, it existed many years now. Somehow it worked out for the site.

[Jellby]

As it's name says, it is meant for training

It has already been said (by BGA admin) that "training mode" doesn't mean training, it just means no ELO and no penalties. So yes, it's not intended for friends, but it's (apparently) not intended for training either. I already suggested changing the name.

Also every game in alpha and beta state has to be played in training mode

Only alpha (I guess, I haven't played any alpha game), beta games can be played in normal mode, only difference with released games you get a warning and there is no Arena.

[cigma]

It is declared as "real time" in the old and the new lobby.

Why do you keep making things up? There is no "declaration" of "Real-time game" in the new lobby. There it only says, "No rankings, no time limit, no penalties."

You're right. I remembered that wrongly, sorry.

[Nullzone]

The Elo topic is the entire issue, there is nothing else to discuss (maybe gift points, I give you that). If you only want to play with your friends without being unnecessarily penalized, just play training mode.

It is pretty clear from the quotes and the posts they are from how I meant "entire issue". I meant it is the entire issue people can complain about (issue = the absence of Elo in NTL games). There is no separate NTL issue that user Nullzone wanted to make up. The entire main reason for the existence of this thread is that some people want Elo-ranked NTL games back (=entire issue). But the discussion in this thread often derailed into other things, which is stupid.

I understand English isn't your first language so maybe this is a translation issue but I didn't "make anything up". The original post of this thread even explicitly focuses on NTL as a beloved feature and tries to separate it from the problem of "training mode * because no ELO", only mentioning it at the end because mods used it as an excuse for why this change was made. Don't be a *.

Now, I will say: I have tested the training mode timer issue and it does in fact work as you noted, so thank you for clarifying. I've upvoted your bug report about the "real time game" comment on training mode.

*Moderator edit: please remember to use family-friendly language on BGA. Also, insults are not tolerated.

[nik592]

Guys, I think you really don't need to argue why you like games without time limit. Everyone including admins can understand that. The question is why you need Elo at the same time and there have been some good points made about that.

But whenever I read here sth simple like "No time limit is my favorite mode.", "Learn new games without any pressure", "I enjoy the flexibility.", it comes across as ignorant as all of this is still possible.

Why does anyone want ELO? No one needs ELO to play, but people like to know how they rank, improve their rank, etc. For all intents and purposes my games with my friends are no different to my games with strangers, except maybe they take a little longer. Why are they less deserving of contributing to my (or my friends) ranks?

Additonally, one of the workarounds proposed for those who want to play without time limit and ELO is to play games with the longest time limit and then just ignore the clock, including if it runs over. Which is the same as playing NTL, but with a ticking clock hanging over everyone. If there is some kind of exploit possible with NTL play (which I'm not clear there is), isn't playing this way subject to the same problem?