Am I the only one who thinks thieving fairies is just way overpowered? They invalidate/minimize/leech so many cards: Dice of malice, Kairn the destroyer, idol of the familiar, etc. and are free/cheap. Seems like an oversight in game design.
Seasons, thieving fairies
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Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
The best way to answer this question is to do a comprehensive analysis of how Fairies affects Seasons. This analysis is focused on 2 player games, which is what most high ranked players choose to specialize in.
List of cards that Fairies affects
Constant Activation
1. Crystal Orb
2. Necrotic Kriss
3. Die of Malice
4. Idol of the Familiar
5. Arcane Telescope
6. Damned Soul of Onys
7. Kairn the Destroyer
8. Glutton Cauldron
9. Fairy Monolith
10. Dragon Skull
11. Tree of Light
12. Jewel of the Ancients
13. Mirror of the Seasons
14. Balance of Ishtar
You also have the five one shot potions and Argos Hawk
Argos Hawk, Potion of Power, Potion of Dreams, Potion of Knowledge, Potion of Life, Potion of Resurrection
So out of 70 cards total, we have 50 cards unaffected, 14 cards shut down, and 6 cards that would be affected once.
Realistically though, no one really cares if Fairies gets played on their Dragon Skull or Jewel of Ancients, the effects aren’t that important anyway, and you’re probably not going to activate them more than a few times. Everything in the bottom half of the list is honestly not something you build a strategy around. So, we’ve managed to narrow down the actually important cards that Fairies affects to 8, let’s remember how Fairies works.
I. If you have crystals, give one to your opponent and your opponent gains one extra, for a 3 point swing.
II. If you’re at 0 crystals, your opponent gains one, for a 1 point swing.
As you can see, Fairies are three times stronger when your opponent has crystals.
With this in mind, we divide the affected cards into two categories
Crystal Generators/Required
1. Die of Malice
2. Idol of the Familiar
3. Arcane Telescope
Non-Crystal Generators
1. Crystal Orb
2. Necrotic Kriss
3. Damned Soul of Onys
4. Kairn the Destroyer
5. Glutton Cauldron
Broken or Balanced?
So now that we have the groundwork laid out, let’s answer the question of whether Fairies if overpowered.
No, they’re not; Fairies are balanced.
People who accuse Fairies of being overpowered say
1. Fairies shut down a ton of cards
No, they really don’t. If you look at the list above, you’ll notice that it’s quite short.
Let’s make an analogy to Arcano Leech, which steals 1 crystal for each card your opponent plays, for a swing of 2 crystals. It affects every card in the game, 100% hit rate. And there’s no dodging by having 0 crystal, the payment is mandatory.
In exchange for only affecting 20% of the cards in the game, obviously Fairies has to do something stronger. So, 3 crystal swing per activation if the opponent has crystals, or 1 if he doesn’t.
Fairies blocks Idol, and that’s only if you have less than 3 familiars. Assuming you have crystals, Die now costs 1, Telescope costs 5, Orb and Kriss cost 3. Kairn only does 1 point of damage, and Glutton Cauldron just isn’t worth using.
2. Fairies cost nothing to play
Temporal Boots cost nothing to play either, Arcano costs virtually nothing, Die of Malice costs nothing, and on and on. The cost of a card is factored into its value, which is in turn balanced out by the draft. If you think a card is strong, you draft it earlier, if you think it’s weak, you leave it for later. Low cost is not a valid argument for brokenness in a card drafting game.
3. Fairies singlehandedly destroys strategies
Yes, but more specifically, “Activation” strategies. There are several other strategies available, no one is forcing you to use activation cards.
I see this a lot, inexperienced players basing their entire game around one of two cards, Crystal Orb or Idol of the Familiar, or filling their library with activation cards. Then when Fairies gets played on them they cry “Fairies ruined my strategy” and “I would have won if you didn’t have Fairies”, and eventually come to the conclusion, “Fairies are overpowered”.
It’s logical in a way, new players think they see a cause and effect sequence. They don’t realize that what went wrong wasn’t Fairies, but their draft. When you go all in on an activation strategy, you’re supposed to factor in the risk that Fairies will be played on you. Inexperienced players are unable to recognize that risk, and recklessly pursue activation strategies, then blame Fairies when they lose.
How to Counter Fairies
Okay, I’ve gone on this long explanation of why Fairies is balanced. Throughout, I’ve dropped hints of how to counter them, but let’s list the ways explicitly, in order of effectiveness.
1. Don’t base your entire strategy on activation cards, especially be wary of Idol of the Familiars. All activation cards come with a hidden risk that you are implicitly accepting when you draft them. Stronger players make accurate value judgments on activation cards during the draft, weaker players overvalue them.
2. If you must base your strategy on an activation card, Crystal Orb for example, keep near 0 crystal for as long as possible. Fairies becomes 3 times stronger when you have crystals, so the obvious counter is to not have any. If you already have crystals, try to burn them off with something like a Runic Cube.
3. Worst case scenario, you have an activation strategy, too many crystals to burn, and Fairies is played on you. First of all, don’t concede because you think Fairies is broken. Conceding because you recognize the game is unwinnable or it will make you feel better is one thing, but giving up because you think Fairies is unbeatable is stupid, you’ll never learn that way. Stop activating your cards, except strategically. With experience, you’ll learn when to activate your cards and when it’s not worth it.
List of cards other than Fairies that have been accused of being overpowered
Kairn
Temporal Boots
Runic Cube
Scepter of Greatness
Wondrous Chest
Titus Deepgaze
Many players have seriously thought the above cards were broken or have house rules that remove them from the deck. Guess what, the general opinion of experienced players is that they’re balanced just fine.
List of cards that Fairies affects
Constant Activation
1. Crystal Orb
2. Necrotic Kriss
3. Die of Malice
4. Idol of the Familiar
5. Arcane Telescope
6. Damned Soul of Onys
7. Kairn the Destroyer
8. Glutton Cauldron
9. Fairy Monolith
10. Dragon Skull
11. Tree of Light
12. Jewel of the Ancients
13. Mirror of the Seasons
14. Balance of Ishtar
You also have the five one shot potions and Argos Hawk
Argos Hawk, Potion of Power, Potion of Dreams, Potion of Knowledge, Potion of Life, Potion of Resurrection
So out of 70 cards total, we have 50 cards unaffected, 14 cards shut down, and 6 cards that would be affected once.
Realistically though, no one really cares if Fairies gets played on their Dragon Skull or Jewel of Ancients, the effects aren’t that important anyway, and you’re probably not going to activate them more than a few times. Everything in the bottom half of the list is honestly not something you build a strategy around. So, we’ve managed to narrow down the actually important cards that Fairies affects to 8, let’s remember how Fairies works.
I. If you have crystals, give one to your opponent and your opponent gains one extra, for a 3 point swing.
II. If you’re at 0 crystals, your opponent gains one, for a 1 point swing.
As you can see, Fairies are three times stronger when your opponent has crystals.
With this in mind, we divide the affected cards into two categories
Crystal Generators/Required
1. Die of Malice
2. Idol of the Familiar
3. Arcane Telescope
Non-Crystal Generators
1. Crystal Orb
2. Necrotic Kriss
3. Damned Soul of Onys
4. Kairn the Destroyer
5. Glutton Cauldron
Broken or Balanced?
So now that we have the groundwork laid out, let’s answer the question of whether Fairies if overpowered.
No, they’re not; Fairies are balanced.
People who accuse Fairies of being overpowered say
1. Fairies shut down a ton of cards
No, they really don’t. If you look at the list above, you’ll notice that it’s quite short.
Let’s make an analogy to Arcano Leech, which steals 1 crystal for each card your opponent plays, for a swing of 2 crystals. It affects every card in the game, 100% hit rate. And there’s no dodging by having 0 crystal, the payment is mandatory.
In exchange for only affecting 20% of the cards in the game, obviously Fairies has to do something stronger. So, 3 crystal swing per activation if the opponent has crystals, or 1 if he doesn’t.
Fairies blocks Idol, and that’s only if you have less than 3 familiars. Assuming you have crystals, Die now costs 1, Telescope costs 5, Orb and Kriss cost 3. Kairn only does 1 point of damage, and Glutton Cauldron just isn’t worth using.
2. Fairies cost nothing to play
Temporal Boots cost nothing to play either, Arcano costs virtually nothing, Die of Malice costs nothing, and on and on. The cost of a card is factored into its value, which is in turn balanced out by the draft. If you think a card is strong, you draft it earlier, if you think it’s weak, you leave it for later. Low cost is not a valid argument for brokenness in a card drafting game.
3. Fairies singlehandedly destroys strategies
Yes, but more specifically, “Activation” strategies. There are several other strategies available, no one is forcing you to use activation cards.
I see this a lot, inexperienced players basing their entire game around one of two cards, Crystal Orb or Idol of the Familiar, or filling their library with activation cards. Then when Fairies gets played on them they cry “Fairies ruined my strategy” and “I would have won if you didn’t have Fairies”, and eventually come to the conclusion, “Fairies are overpowered”.
It’s logical in a way, new players think they see a cause and effect sequence. They don’t realize that what went wrong wasn’t Fairies, but their draft. When you go all in on an activation strategy, you’re supposed to factor in the risk that Fairies will be played on you. Inexperienced players are unable to recognize that risk, and recklessly pursue activation strategies, then blame Fairies when they lose.
How to Counter Fairies
Okay, I’ve gone on this long explanation of why Fairies is balanced. Throughout, I’ve dropped hints of how to counter them, but let’s list the ways explicitly, in order of effectiveness.
1. Don’t base your entire strategy on activation cards, especially be wary of Idol of the Familiars. All activation cards come with a hidden risk that you are implicitly accepting when you draft them. Stronger players make accurate value judgments on activation cards during the draft, weaker players overvalue them.
2. If you must base your strategy on an activation card, Crystal Orb for example, keep near 0 crystal for as long as possible. Fairies becomes 3 times stronger when you have crystals, so the obvious counter is to not have any. If you already have crystals, try to burn them off with something like a Runic Cube.
3. Worst case scenario, you have an activation strategy, too many crystals to burn, and Fairies is played on you. First of all, don’t concede because you think Fairies is broken. Conceding because you recognize the game is unwinnable or it will make you feel better is one thing, but giving up because you think Fairies is unbeatable is stupid, you’ll never learn that way. Stop activating your cards, except strategically. With experience, you’ll learn when to activate your cards and when it’s not worth it.
List of cards other than Fairies that have been accused of being overpowered
Kairn
Temporal Boots
Runic Cube
Scepter of Greatness
Wondrous Chest
Titus Deepgaze
Many players have seriously thought the above cards were broken or have house rules that remove them from the deck. Guess what, the general opinion of experienced players is that they’re balanced just fine.
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
Dude, why don't you take a down a notch on the condescension? Strong players blah blah blah.
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
You realize how rude you're being to the people who designed the game? And how foolish this question looks to the stronger players?Slimbo wrote:Am I the only one who thinks thieving fairies is just way overpowered? They invalidate/minimize/leech so many cards: Dice of malice, Kairn the destroyer, idol of the familiar, etc. and are free/cheap. Seems like an oversight in game design.
My Seasons Rating: 1903, Expert, Rank 31, 80% Win RateSlimbo wrote:Dude, why don't you take a down a notch on the condescension? Strong players blah blah blah.
Slimbo's Seasons Rating: <1600, Average, Rank 3-4 digits, 40% Win Rate
You mistake the truth for condescension.
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
Frozen wrote:You realize how rude you're being to the people who designed the game? And how foolish this question looks to the stronger players?Slimbo wrote:Am I the only one who thinks thieving fairies is just way overpowered? They invalidate/minimize/leech so many cards: Dice of malice, Kairn the destroyer, idol of the familiar, etc. and are free/cheap. Seems like an oversight in game design.
My Seasons Rating: 1903, Expert, Rank 31, 80% Win RateSlimbo wrote:Dude, why don't you take a down a notch on the condescension? Strong players blah blah blah.
Slimbo's Seasons Rating: <1600, Average, Rank 3-4 digits, 40% Win Rate
You mistake the truth for condescension.
Frozen's tool rating: Master.
Some of the many cards you have spent way too much time thinking about have potential to be excessively powered especially in multiplayer games. Facts are the game is far from balanced as even between two "Experts" scores can vary wildly. It's basically Yahtzee that takes too long. Sometimes fun but as slow as some players play I die of boredom halfway through.
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
The general consensus is that Seasons is best as a 2 player game, which minimizes downtime and randomness. If you find yourself dying of boredom when playing a game, I suggest you try to play stronger opponents who will keep you interested, or just find another game. No one is forcing you to play a game you don't like and which you think is unbalanced.robbdaman wrote: Some of the many cards you have spent way too much time thinking about have potential to be excessively powered especially in multiplayer games. Facts are the game is far from balanced as even between two "Experts" scores can vary wildly. It's basically Yahtzee that takes too long. Sometimes fun but as slow as some players play I die of boredom halfway through.
Also, I don't believe that someone with a rating of 1400 has any business talking about "Expert" scores. They may not always match up, some cards like Temporal Boots and Demon of Argos can result in inability to reach your full score potential, but I generally find my potential scores are with 30-50 points of my opponents when I'm playing against someone skilled. On the contrary, I see the wildest score ranges when playing weak players who don't know the value of the cards in the draft.
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
Frozen said:
"You realize how rude you're being to the people who designed the game? And how foolish this question looks to the stronger players?"
Do you realize just how rude you are? Sure is foolish of me to wonder why a card that is completely free basically shuts down several expensive cards. WHAT A FOOL I AM! HOW DARE I?
Frozen said:
My Seasons Rating: 1903, Expert, Rank 31, 80% Win Rate
Slimbo's Seasons Rating: <1600, Average, Rank 3-4 digits, 40% Win Rate
You mistake the truth for condescension.
Is that your rating or Reality's rating? Oh wait, do you have 2 accounts? Yeah if I knocked out my first 150 games my rating would be much higher too. LOL. What a tool.
"You realize how rude you're being to the people who designed the game? And how foolish this question looks to the stronger players?"
Do you realize just how rude you are? Sure is foolish of me to wonder why a card that is completely free basically shuts down several expensive cards. WHAT A FOOL I AM! HOW DARE I?
Frozen said:
My Seasons Rating: 1903, Expert, Rank 31, 80% Win Rate
Slimbo's Seasons Rating: <1600, Average, Rank 3-4 digits, 40% Win Rate
You mistake the truth for condescension.
Is that your rating or Reality's rating? Oh wait, do you have 2 accounts? Yeah if I knocked out my first 150 games my rating would be much higher too. LOL. What a tool.
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
Overall, Fairies are overpowered and stronger than Arcano Leech.
It doesn't require skills and can give a really big advantage.
I made some mathematics on the cards value and thieving fairies is the strongest card. Sure, in some case, It will be totally useless because your opponent does'nt have any cards affected by it. But if you don't just focus on one poor match-up, and look in a normal match, where your opponent will have a key card based on activation, you will see it's impact.
Do not only think when your opponent activate his cards. You also need to think that your opponent won't activate his cards because of fairies, and then, he will lose some extra critstals, or energy,..
In my opinion, Fairies is a pain in the game. They don't absolutely need to be Nerf, but i really hope we'll get a counter card to fairies in the new futures cards. Like a fairies Eater or so...
Kain overpowered? hell no! It's an ok card, but not even a good card...
Runic Cube ? It's a +10 card. Trash by any mean, just good if you draft if with dream potion or cristal orb or divine chalice...
Others are ok.
It doesn't require skills and can give a really big advantage.
I made some mathematics on the cards value and thieving fairies is the strongest card. Sure, in some case, It will be totally useless because your opponent does'nt have any cards affected by it. But if you don't just focus on one poor match-up, and look in a normal match, where your opponent will have a key card based on activation, you will see it's impact.
Do not only think when your opponent activate his cards. You also need to think that your opponent won't activate his cards because of fairies, and then, he will lose some extra critstals, or energy,..
In my opinion, Fairies is a pain in the game. They don't absolutely need to be Nerf, but i really hope we'll get a counter card to fairies in the new futures cards. Like a fairies Eater or so...
What? ExplainReality wrote:
List of cards other than Fairies that have been accused of being overpowered
Kairn
Temporal Boots
Runic Cube
Scepter of Greatness
Wondrous Chest
Titus Deepgaze
Many players have seriously thought the above cards were broken or have house rules that remove them from the deck. Guess what, the general opinion of experienced players is that they’re balanced just fine.
Kain overpowered? hell no! It's an ok card, but not even a good card...
Runic Cube ? It's a +10 card. Trash by any mean, just good if you draft if with dream potion or cristal orb or divine chalice...
Others are ok.
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
Yeah, like know or care what my ELO is. The fact that you do and even worse that you think it's special is kind of sad. Go enjoy your claim to fame in being an "Expert" at Seasons. 
Re: Seasons, thieving fairies
Since robbdaman and Slimbo have more or less ignored my post and chosen to resort to ad hominem by this point, they don't really deserve an actual response.
Yes, the main value of Fairies is denial, you generally don't get many points from them, rather, they prevent your opponent from gaining points because they decrease the value of each activation by 3 crystals.
You seem to believe that in a normal match a player will have an activation based strategy. However, If you look at the list of cards above, you'll see that really only three strategy defining cards are affected by Fairies: Orb, Idol, and Kriss.
Crystal Generators/Required
1. Die of Malice
2. Idol of the Familiar
3. Arcane Telescope
Non-Crystal Generators
1. Crystal Orb
2. Necrotic Kriss
3. Damned Soul of Onys
4. Kairn the Destroyer
5. Glutton Cauldron
Furthermore, Crystal Orb has the option to mitigate the damage from Fairies by staying at 0 crystal.
So yeah, Necrotic Kriss and Idol of the Familiar. And really, paying 3 crystals to Kriss a familiar is fine, so it's basically just Idol with less than 3 familiars that gets shut down by Fairies. And I would hardly call Idol a good card.
On the contrary, the normal match is one in which Fairies mostly does nothing, maybe saps a few crystal from potions or an occasional Crystal Orb look. Meanwhile, Fairies doesn't affect Temporal Boots, Wondrous Chest, Divine Chalice, Arcano Leech, Horn of Plenty+Beggars Horn, or any number of non-activation strategies.
Let's see, this thread here, and this one, where a bunch of inexperienced players decide to house rule Kairn out of the deck because they think it's overpowered.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/926238/ ... verpowered
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/987140/ ... th-seasons
And in this thread the new player decides that Runic Cube is overpowered, and accuses Seasons of not having proper playtesters.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/876134/ ... eams-abuse
Now let's recall Slimbo's words
Not requiring skill and being stronger than another card is hardly the definition of overpowered.Asouras wrote:Overall, Fairies are overpowered and stronger than Arcano Leech.
It doesn't require skills and can give a really big advantage.
I made some mathematics on the cards value and thieving fairies is the strongest card. Sure, in some case, It will be totally useless because your opponent does'nt have any cards affected by it. But if you don't just focus on one poor match-up, and look in a normal match, where your opponent will have a key card based on activation, you will see it's impact.
Do not only think when your opponent activate his cards. You also need to think that your opponent won't activate his cards because of fairies, and then, he will lose some extra critstals, or energy,..
In my opinion, Fairies is a pain in the game. They don't absolutely need to be Nerf, but i really hope we'll get a counter card to fairies in the new futures cards. Like a fairies Eater or so...
Yes, the main value of Fairies is denial, you generally don't get many points from them, rather, they prevent your opponent from gaining points because they decrease the value of each activation by 3 crystals.
You seem to believe that in a normal match a player will have an activation based strategy. However, If you look at the list of cards above, you'll see that really only three strategy defining cards are affected by Fairies: Orb, Idol, and Kriss.
Crystal Generators/Required
1. Die of Malice
2. Idol of the Familiar
3. Arcane Telescope
Non-Crystal Generators
1. Crystal Orb
2. Necrotic Kriss
3. Damned Soul of Onys
4. Kairn the Destroyer
5. Glutton Cauldron
Furthermore, Crystal Orb has the option to mitigate the damage from Fairies by staying at 0 crystal.
So yeah, Necrotic Kriss and Idol of the Familiar. And really, paying 3 crystals to Kriss a familiar is fine, so it's basically just Idol with less than 3 familiars that gets shut down by Fairies. And I would hardly call Idol a good card.
On the contrary, the normal match is one in which Fairies mostly does nothing, maybe saps a few crystal from potions or an occasional Crystal Orb look. Meanwhile, Fairies doesn't affect Temporal Boots, Wondrous Chest, Divine Chalice, Arcano Leech, Horn of Plenty+Beggars Horn, or any number of non-activation strategies.
First impressions tend to be wrong or exaggerated. Some players like Slimbo never get over those impressions, and thus never become good players.Asouras wrote:What? ExplainReality wrote:
List of cards other than Fairies that have been accused of being overpowered
Kairn
Temporal Boots
Runic Cube
Scepter of Greatness
Wondrous Chest
Titus Deepgaze
Many players have seriously thought the above cards were broken or have house rules that remove them from the deck. Guess what, the general opinion of experienced players is that they’re balanced just fine.
Kain overpowered? hell no! It's an ok card, but not even a good card...
Runic Cube ? It's a +10 card. Trash by any mean, just good if you draft if with dream potion or cristal orb or divine chalice...
Others are ok.
Let's see, this thread here, and this one, where a bunch of inexperienced players decide to house rule Kairn out of the deck because they think it's overpowered.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/926238/ ... verpowered
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/987140/ ... th-seasons
And in this thread the new player decides that Runic Cube is overpowered, and accuses Seasons of not having proper playtesters.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/876134/ ... eams-abuse
Now let's recall Slimbo's words
Note the similarities in the above threads to the original post: inexperienced/weak player, accusations of a card being overpowered, blaming the game to save his ego, etc.Slimbo wrote:Am I the only one who thinks thieving fairies is just way overpowered? They invalidate/minimize/leech so many cards: Dice of malice, Kairn the destroyer, idol of the familiar, etc. and are free/cheap. Seems like an oversight in game design.