first player setting

[Pietr_ucci]

Hi Wingspan Players!
I want to share with you this though, hoping that we can convince the programmer/bga managers to update the BGA version of Wingspan on this topic.

The original rules of the game requires that the FIRST PLAYER is determined randomly AFTER all players have decided how to manage the starting hand, which makes very much sense to me because in a competitive game, any extra data/information you have about the game assets can be beneficial to a specific player, and on the implementation of Wingspan on BGA this is exactly what happens, imho:

the first player knows before selecting his cards/food/bonus cards, what are the first 3 cards in the cards tray and the 5 foods in the bird feeder; also the other players know, of course, but given the fact that the first players KNOWS he is going first, he can easily adapt the starting resources based on the the first action he will perform and, therefore, have an advantage that the following players very simply won't have, because when they decide how to manage their starting hand that can't predict what the action of the first player will be.

I truly believe this aspect should be fixed.

FYI information, a year ago I was given an answer about this by one of the programmer, explaining that this choice was made to make the game the same as the one on Wingspan online app, and it was noot really having consequences on the gameplay, but I am still 100% convinced that this is an alteration of the game symmetry and information balance (crucial expecially on a 2 players game!).

Let me know what you think.

Pietr_ucci

[Pietr_ucci]

To give you a complete overview about why on BGA the first player is predetermined, I post the link to the BUG that I had submitted on BGA (yea, I thought it was a bug LOL).

https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=70934

THe BGA programmer was very kind to answer prommptly and explained why the game is programmed this way (it was requested by WIngspan publisher itself), but the explanation given on the WHY was not at all making sense, Indeed, it was totally contradictory to the intention:

"I discussed this with the publisher, who has decided that in the BGA implementation, the first player should be determined before initial discards."

"The rules say the first player is chosen (randomly) after all players have chosen which bird cards, bonus card, and food to keep. But in more competitive environments (like digital adaptations or tournaments), it is an official variant to have the turn order determined before everyone chooses which cards and food to keep."

WHAAAT?

[jpsweeter]

There is no question that first player has huge advantage in wingspan, being able to choose not just 5 cards in their hands but also 3 from the tray as well. I also find the second player in one on one has huge disadvange as, while they go first in round 4, likelyhood of drawing cards in the last round is low as you are only left with 5 turns and using your precious turn to drawing cards is not just efficient; it's usually better to just play what you already have or lay eggs. But the game's first player now goes the last in the last round, which is again a huge advantage for them. You can make your final move based on your opponent's action. You can try to win the end of round goals, play big point bird or lay eggs. You have greater flexibility in the last round, because you go after the other player; you can play your best move based on the other player's move. This flexibility is more precious in the late game, as you are more likely to play bigger point birds or score more points by lay eggs.

Having said that, I think knowing the order in advance is also for the second player (or latter players)'s benefit as it helps them to plan the cards/food accordingly. Otherwise, you thought you would go first and keep the cards and food to prepare for that first card draw, but you didn't get that card and you are now completely screwed.

I think what makes the game more fair is
1) allowing the second or latter players to know the first player's card number and food choice. Right now, that information is visible only after you make your selections. But, in the steam version, the first player's choice of number of cards to keep and food are visible before the second or latter players make their choices. This is huge help for them, as they can guess what card the first player would likely draw from the tray, especially when there are multiple good cards on the tray. Knowing what food the first player kept often gives them a hint.
2) allowing home and away style matches. Like sports game, you create a back to back match where players alternate their first player order. This is especially nice for tournaments. Instead of single elimination, you have two matches to alternate the starting order. If they split the wins, then decide a winner by points combined or have a tiebreaking game and the player with more points combined gets to go first in the tiebreaker.

[Pietr_ucci]

I also find the second player in one on one has huge disadvange as, while they go first in round 4, likelyhood of drawing cards in the last round is low as you are only left with 5 turns and using your precious turn to drawing cards is not just efficient; it's usually better to just play what you already have or lay eggs. But the game's first player now goes the last in the last round, which is again a huge advantage for them. You can make your final move based on your opponent's action. You can try to win the end of round goals, play big point bird or lay eggs. You have greater flexibility in the last round, because you go after the other player; you can play your best move based on the other player's move. This flexibility is more precious in the late game, as you are more likely to play bigger point birds or score more points by lay eggs.

I never thought about that, although I think that, in the standard rules, the moment you know who is first and who is last will let you plan in advance the moves to prepare the last round, no matter what the turn order in the game is; I don't think the latter player begins planning in advance his needs from round 1 (knowing that he will play last on the very last turn), whereas first player can easily plan round 1 turn 1 at the best and still be able to plan in advance all the rest of his moves along the game, knowing that he will don't play the last turn of the game.

[Mathew5000]

I think what makes the game more fair is
...
2) allowing home and away style matches. Like sports game, you create a back to back match where players alternate their first player order. This is especially nice for tournaments. Instead of single elimination, you have two matches to alternate the starting order. If they split the wins, then decide a winner by points combined or have a tiebreaking game and the player with more points combined gets to go first in the tiebreaker.

Yes, good idea. In two-player games, have a setting for "home and away" where the players play twice, the winner determined by total score over the two games. Because otherwise, it's just too large an advantage for the player who goes first in round 1 (regardless of whether the players know who is first at the time of the initial discard).

(Another possibility: in a two player game have the player who goes second in round 1, play first in rounds 2 and 3, while the player who goes first in round 1 also goes first in round 4.)

[spelare1003]

There is yet another advantage to being the first player. If you play a bird with a pink ability, getting it down early can be important. If you for example wish to start with your Belted Kingfisher, you're not happy to be player 2 and see your opponent's first turn be to play a Yellow Commonthroat. It's similar if you have an Eastern Kingbird and your opponent gets to put a bird in their forest before you can get it down. These cases don't come up that frequently, but the impact can be big.

I wish I knew how to find statistics on results, in order to check how frequently the starting player wins in high-level arena matches. It would be interesting to see how big the starting player advantage is.

[FrankJones]

So, the rule on BGA was implemented completely incorrectly here, and the reason given was to match the incorrect implementation of the other version?

This is a major rules error, and it should be fixed. I assume there is already a suggestion in the bug/suggestion thread that has a lot of upvotes?

[Meeplelowda]

So, the rule on BGA was implemented completely incorrectly here, and the reason given was to match the incorrect implementation of the other version?

This is a major rules error, and it should be fixed. I assume there is already a suggestion in the bug/suggestion thread that has a lot of upvotes?

Here is the text of what was written in the bug report so people don't have to jump to another link to see it:

2022-08-30 9:00 • paramesis • This is not a bug:
For more information, see stonemaiergames.com/games/wingspan/rules/

Under Rule Questions => Game Mechanisms

When do we choose the first player? Before or after players choose cards and food?

The rules say the first player is chosen (randomly) after all players have chosen which bird cards, bonus card, and food to keep. But in more competitive environments (like digital adaptations or tournaments), it is an official variant to have the turn order determined before everyone chooses which cards and food to keep.

Whatever one's opinion of their reasons for doing it, Stonemaier gets to decide what happens with their game. So all the strongly worded emails should be directed their way. Maybe they will change their minds. Maybe they won't. But creating new bug reports (or upvoting an existing one) for an issue that has already been reviewed is not helpful.

[FrankJones]

Good points; thanks for posting that info.

Very odd decision by Stonemaier to change the rule for highly competitive settings, giving even more of an advantage to the first player.

[Mathew5000]

Other relevant threads on this forum:

• https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31374

• https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34583