Seasons, thieving fairies

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tobylongbeach
Posts: 14
Joined: 19 September 2011, 06:25

Re: Seasons, thieving fairies

Post by tobylongbeach »

REALITY, I really appreciate the time and energy you put into your analysis of the thieving fairies. I would quibble with some of your points:

1) I have based my strategy around and won with the cards: Tree of Light or Mirror of the Seasons. I especially use them with a transmutation-based strategy along with energy generators and purse of io. Denial of these cards is deadly if I'm trying to use a transmute strategy. Specifically, they allow me to transmute much more energy without having to save those energies to get out particular cards.

2) Thieving fairies in combo with arcano leach forces you to have crystals to play cards so that is a quibble that I have with your counter strategy.

3) A consequence of your counter-strategy #2 in a 3 or 4 player game is that other players keeping their crystal gauge at or near zero indirectly nullifies other crystal-stealing or -destroying cards like titus, kairn, and the avaricious. So the effects of thieving fairies are actually much more pernicious.

3) I much prefer seasons in a 3 or 4 player game because it is more Eurogamey and less cutthroat. In a 4 player game, especially, Thieving fairies in the first round is almost an automatic win. Unless two different players have them and then it becomes a fight just between those two. The chances that one of the four players will be forced to do an activation strategy by whats available to him or her in the draft is almost guaranteed in a four player game. Theiving fairies is less powerful in a 2 player game because of opportunity cost in the draft: The 2nd strongest card that you passed up for the theiving fairies now belongs to the other player. That card is often an energy generator so the theiving fairies player is often at an energy loss in a 2 player game. This is much less of an issue in a four player game because the draft is not zero sum and you may end up with two theiving fairies which is unarguably overpowered.

4) Regardless of whether it is overpowered, it, like Kairn, is a game-changer. You are forced to play differently if someone has them out. That alone makes it a very strong card. I feel it should have a zero card value, at the very least. Certainly, it is a stronger card than other zero value cards and its cost is miniscule. You cannot argue that it is a weak card. It is a very strong card. Whether it is overpowered, is really an argument about whether it is so strong that it unbalances the game.

Overall, I do think it is slightly overpowered. It is certainly the very first thing that I grab in a draft and the second thing I play in the first round (so it doesn't get eaten by the doggie).

Sincerely,
Toby
Reality
Posts: 3
Joined: 06 October 2013, 01:19

Re: Seasons, thieving fairies

Post by Reality »

1. A strategy based on Tree of Light + Purse of Io can expect to earn 1 net point each turn. A average game lasts 18 turns, you'll probably need 3-4 turns to get those two cards out along with a shield, so that's net 15 points over the course of the game, assuming everything goes perfectly. Generally speaking, 15 points isn't quite enough to base a strategy around. If you mean using Tree of Light to constantly transmute by discarding an energy, then there's usually something stronger to do with your spare energy.

2. Yes, it's true that playing against Thieving Fairies+Arcano Leech is tricky, and usually I would just stop trying to stay at 0 if it's too inconvenient. These two rarely come up together in 2 player games though, but since you prefer 3-4 player games you'll see them more often.

3. It's true that Fairies has indirect effects. Titus and Kairn though, well...Titus is generally destroyed pretty quickly in multiplayer games anyway, and few people would bother activating Kairn with an opposing Fairies. Figrim is weakened slightly, but keeping at 0 crystal is more of a precaution than a reaction. The same way people always shield against Syllas, by the time you know your opponent has one, it's too late. So Figrim is barely affected, since activating opponents would be trying to keep near 0 whether or not Fairies are present.

4. I find there's somewhat too much downtime in 4 player games for my liking. In a 2 player game, I play 50% of the time, but in a 4 player game that drops to 25%. It's also more difficult to control the dice and game flow, and correspondingly more difficult to punish mistakes. If you make a draft mistake in a 2 player game then your opponent will probably win, if you do the same in a 4 player game it hurts far less, since the deck you see in 2 turns won't be the one you gave, stripped of the next best card.

Thieving Fairies in the first round of a 4 player game is quite strong, as is a first turn Arcano Leech. In a 4 player game they're about twice as strong as they are in a 2 player game. It seems the developers acknowledge this:

http://www.laselectiondudimanche.com/im ... easons.pdf, translation by Google translate and tumorous

Contre-exemple - J’ai perdu après avoir posé les fées chapardeuses en première année dans une partie à 3 ou 4 joueurs.
Counterexample - I lost after playing the Thieving Fairies in the first year in a game of 3 or 4 players.

5. I agree that Fairies is both strong and a game changer, I don't believe that the former follows from the latter though. For example, Warden of Argos is a game changer, forcing you to either play out your first year hand quickly or keep a weak card in hand as a shield, but very few experienced players would consider it strong. You are not forced, per se, to play differently in response to the threat of cards like Thieving Fairies, Temporal Boots, Warden of Argos or Syllas. It just so happens that if you don't adjust your play style, you'll probably lose.

I don't find Thieving Fairies overpowered in 2 player games. Fairies is one of the three cards competing for first place, along with Crystal Orb and Temporal Boots, but it's not so strong that it guarantees a win upon play.

I haven't played enough 3-4 player games to have a solid opinion on Fairies there, but I imagine it's fairly close to an uncontested first.
tobylongbeach wrote:REALITY, I really appreciate the time and energy you put into your analysis of the thieving fairies. I would quibble with some of your points:

1) I have based my strategy around and won with the cards: Tree of Light or Mirror of the Seasons. I especially use them with a transmutation-based strategy along with energy generators and purse of io. Denial of these cards is deadly if I'm trying to use a transmute strategy. Specifically, they allow me to transmute much more energy without having to save those energies to get out particular cards.

2) Thieving fairies in combo with arcano leach forces you to have crystals to play cards so that is a quibble that I have with your counter strategy.

3) A consequence of your counter-strategy #2 in a 3 or 4 player game is that other players keeping their crystal gauge at or near zero indirectly nullifies other crystal-stealing or -destroying cards like titus, kairn, and the avaricious. So the effects of thieving fairies are actually much more pernicious.

4) I much prefer seasons in a 3 or 4 player game because it is more Eurogamey and less cutthroat. In a 4 player game, especially, Thieving fairies in the first round is almost an automatic win. Unless two different players have them and then it becomes a fight just between those two. The chances that one of the four players will be forced to do an activation strategy by whats available to him or her in the draft is almost guaranteed in a four player game. Theiving fairies is less powerful in a 2 player game because of opportunity cost in the draft: The 2nd strongest card that you passed up for the theiving fairies now belongs to the other player. That card is often an energy generator so the theiving fairies player is often at an energy loss in a 2 player game. This is much less of an issue in a four player game because the draft is not zero sum and you may end up with two theiving fairies which is unarguably overpowered.

5) Regardless of whether it is overpowered, it, like Kairn, is a game-changer. You are forced to play differently if someone has them out. That alone makes it a very strong card. I feel it should have a zero card value, at the very least. Certainly, it is a stronger card than other zero value cards and its cost is miniscule. You cannot argue that it is a weak card. It is a very strong card. Whether it is overpowered, is really an argument about whether it is so strong that it unbalances the game.

Overall, I do think it is slightly overpowered. It is certainly the very first thing that I grab in a draft and the second thing I play in the first round (so it doesn't get eaten by the doggie).

Sincerely,
Toby
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