Same Maps in Arena Mode

[Wrathberry]

Hi,

do you think that giving both players the same map in Arena mode is the right choice?

I kinda dont like it, because i feel like the different maps are a big part of Ark Nova and how all Zoos work a little different.

Its like different player powers in other games. i mean in competetive Terraforming mars, would you give the same Company to all players?

or in terra mystica, would you give all players the same race?


Playing with those different zoos is for me a big part of ark nova, and i feel like the arena mode shouldnt use the "same map" option, because it takes away a lot of what ark nova is about.

Ark nova is no chess, ark nova always will be unpredictable and feel like taking away some of this, definitly does not make the game better.

If you think that the maps are not balanced enough, just implement a "ban" phase, where both players can ban 1 map or something.

[Remkar]

I don't play arena, so I don't have a vested interest in this, but I assume they are trying same maps because arena players are generally interested in the fairest, most competitive scenario, and in ark Nova I would guess most competitive players would agree that is likely 2 player with the same map.

Regarding the map banning, that isn't an option. Unofficial variants are not allowed.

[Darador]

I don't play arena, so I don't have a vested interest in this, but I assume they are trying same maps because arena players are generally interested in the fairest, most competitive scenario, and in ark Nova I would guess most competitive players would agree that is likely 2 player with the same map.

Regarding the map banning, that isn't an option. Unofficial variants are not allowed.

I'd say allowing two or more players to play with the same ("advanced") map (1-8) is already an unofficial variant:
In the official rules, only two ways to distribute maps are detailed on p. 4 of the rulebook (for "once you are familiar with the game" and don't want to play on the beginner maps A or 0 anymore):

Possibility 1: "take 2 random zoo maps and choose 1 of the advanced maps" [this is the "normal" setting on BGA]
Possibility 2: "Alternatively, you could also lay out player count +1 advanced zoo maps and choose 1 each in reverse order of play." [unfortunately, this isn't possible on BGA at all so far]

I agree with Wrathberry, I'd prefer Arena games to use one of these two official possibilities. Variable player powers are one of the (many) charming aspects of Ark Nova for me.

Out of these two official possibilites, I decidely prefer the second one. I think it's a good idea to try to better balance starting player advantage (which I think isn't balanced quite enough without it).

Independent of whether it gets used in Arena games, I really hope possibility 2 is still going to get programmed!

[Remkar]

I'd say allowing two or more players to play with the same ("advanced") map (1-8) is already an unofficial variant:

I believe the publisher and/or developer officially authorized that during alpha or beta testing on BGA and gave permission for them to program it in, so it is an official variant. I don't think it's really been announced as such outside of BGA because the physical game only comes with 1 off each advanced map, so that variant isn't doable unless you acquire multiple of each map.

Regarding the reverse drafting option, I don't remember hearing about that variant in any plans mentioned during alpha or beta, so I'm not sure what the reason is that it's not part of the game on here.

[Darador]

I'd say allowing two or more players to play with the same ("advanced") map (1-8) is already an unofficial variant:

I believe the publisher and/or developer officially authorized that during alpha or beta testing on BGA and gave permission for them to program it in, so it is an official variant. I don't think it's really been announced as such outside of BGA because the physical game only comes with 1 off each advanced map, so that variant isn't doable unless you acquire multiple of each map.

That may very well be true. I indeed like that the option to play on the same map exists. It's a good way to try out a map you suspect of being weak without presumably disadvantaging yourself.

But that doesn't mean players should be forced to only use this variant if they want to play in the competitive Arena mode.

And I think the second official way to draft should be implemented as well if even semi-official variants are programmed. (A mere suspected non-public approval by the publisher that isn't mentioned in the official rule documents doesn't make the same map variant fully official for me.)

[Darador]

Besides, if the publisher allowed this new same map variant, they could as easily allow the "elimination draft" variant that Wrathberry proposed as an alternative for Arena games. Just mentioning that because you (Remkar) wrote that wouldn't be an option because it isn't official.

However, that variant doesn't sound good to me. It would lead to certain maps being played almost never, particularly map 3. And then we don't test at the presumably highest level of play if it really is as strong as many seem to claim.

I'd like to see all maps in play or at least in the draft. Of course, I also really hope that maps 9 and 10 are still going to get added!

[Darador]

Another thing to consider: I don't like that the same map variant decreases how well some maps work due to the increased competition for certain cards that results when all players play on that same map.

This is particularly obvious for map 8 (Hollywood Hills): At the latest after all players have activated their map's sponsor power, they'd usually like to get their hands on as many sponsors as possible. So there is a big competition for sponsors in the card row, which wouldn't be there if only one player played on map 8. The result can be that the special power of map 8 doesn't seem worthwhile, but it would have been for only one player.

The same type of argument can be made for other maps:
On map 1 (Observation Tower), reptiles and birds that can later be moved to their special enclosures become more attractive. If all players play on that map, the competition for those animals in the card row decreases the attractiveness of the map. On map 2 (Outdoor Areas), large animals become more attractive due to the enclosure size bonus. On map 6 (Research Institute), animals with conditions become more attractive.

For map 4 (Commercial Harbor), the argument is somewhat different:
An advantage of map 4 would usually be that the player on that map can often outlast the other player(s) with sensible actions before the first break due to being able to sell cards for 3 money each. Particularly in 2 player games, this can mean that the other player is forced to do inefficient actions before he can sensibly trigger the break. This advantage is cancelled if all players have map 4.

[Remkar]

But that doesn't mean players should be forced to only use this variant if they want to play in the competitive Arena mode.

I can't tell from your posts (which have lots of good thoughts about the game and maps), if you know how arena selections are generally made on BGA (not just Ark Nova) in general.

All players who reach a certain "play level" (I'm honestly not sure what this level is, though I've reached it occasionally for at least a couple games) get designated as "gurus" for that game. As a new arena season approaches, gurus are given access to a voting system to choose the next arena season rules. If I remember correctly, there's also a forum area (for each individual game) for the gurus to talk with each other (if they choose).

In the 1st arena season for a game, there aren't gurus yet, so I *think* the game developers generally just pick what they feel is a good starting system.

I generally didn't vote when I was a guru for various games, because I just create non-arena games with whatever rule set I want and don't pay much mind to arena.

[Jellby]

All players who reach a certain "play level" (I'm honestly not sure what this level is, though I've reached it occasionally for at least a couple games) get designated as "gurus" for that game.

No level required, just be among the 100 or so players who played the most games in the last 30 days or so. I've been designated a guru for some games after playing a single game, not even reaching the minimum ELO required to play Arena

[Darador]

But that doesn't mean players should be forced to only use this variant if they want to play in the competitive Arena mode.

I can't tell from your posts (which have lots of good thoughts about the game and maps), if you know how arena selections are generally made on BGA (not just Ark Nova) in general.

I was aware of what the FAQ says about it, yes (https://boardgamearena.com/faq?anchor=f ... agamegurus).

I probably won't be among the 100 players who play the most Ark Nova on BGA anytime soon - in a game that's played as much as Ark Nova, that mechanism heavily favors people who play real-time and I only play turn-based with longer time controls (and usually only one game at a time).

So some of my arguments above were intended to convince the players who become the gurus that they should choose a different Arena format next season - "normal" if they have to choose from the currently programmed options.