Wrong ranking calculation in Arena - Elite/Non Elite

[PrimusPalus]

Only way to give sense to the current season is to start all over again.
How would they recalculate scores if none was correct and moreover when AES and Leagues have totally different points calculation system? (Have you ever win with 0 points in Elite despite level of opponent?

[euklid314]

levels DO have impact on AES, it is only not Shown until you reach Elite. Please check faqs about Arena
MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR BUG

You are incorrect. The FAQ does not even mention many well-known facts (e.g. that every player starts with a EAS of 1500 at the beginning of each league). The FAQ does not elaborate how EAS is calculated (identical to ELO).
But most importantly, the FAQ does not mention that levels have an impact on EAS (as you claim) because that is not the case.

[BackGa]

You are incorrect. The FAQ does not even mention many well-known facts (e.g. that every player starts with a EAS of 1500 at the beginning of each league). The FAQ does not elaborate how EAS is calculated (identical to ELO).
How can it be identical if we end with way different ELO and EAS? It is two different things.FAQ says it works as ELO to set ranking, not in points calculation

But most importantly, the FAQ does not mention that levels have an impact on EAS (as you claim) because that is not the case.
EAS is hidden until you reach Elite. Therefore EAS is impacted by levels when calculating scores, you just don't see it. If it was not impacted by levels, we'd all have EAS 1500 once we reach Elite and it is not the case...

[Remkar]

No, what Euklid is saying is correct as I understand it.

Everyone's EAS *IS* changing every arena match. You just don't see it until you reach elite.

When you play an arena match 3 things occur:
1- visible ELO adjustment
2 - visible arena adjustment (bronze/silver/gold/etc)
3 - EAS adjustment (invisible until you reach elite)

So even though you don't see it until Elite Status, EAS is being adjusted every arena match. So what Euklid is saying is that no matter what rank someone is shown to be (bronze, gold, elite, etc.), the adjustment to your EAS (#3 above) will still be correct, even if #2 would be incorrect. So everyone's EAS will still be correct at the end of the season.

Does that make sense? I could probably lay it out more simply with some actual numbers tomorrow if it's still confusing.

[euklid314]

Yes, Remkar, that was what I tried to say. Your explanation is probably clearer than mine.

I want to give the example with numbers. Lets take a recent game that BackGa won against TAVLII:
BackGa:
ELO-Change 280 -> 289 (+9)
EAS-Change 1595 -> 1611 (+16)
TAVLII:
ELO-Change 220 -> 212 (-8)
EAS-Change 1526 -> 1510 (-16)

If the same game had been played with TAVLII in Platin league (and an EAS of 1526) and BackGa in Gold league (and an EAS of 1595) then after the game TAVLII would end with an EAS of 1510 (-16), perhaps losing some shields in his Platin Level and BackGa would end with an EAS of 1611 (+16), perhaps winning some shields in his Gold Level.

Thus, the EAS calculation (No.3 in Remkars explanation) is independent of Arena levels (No. 2 in Remkars explanation) and also independent of the players ELO (No. 1 in Remkars list). If you want to calculate the EAS change, you only have to know the EAS of both players and the game result. Nothing else is plugged into the EAS formula.

The formula to calculate EAS is more or less the same as the formula to calculate ELO - with some differences. The most important are:
*) With ELO, every player starts at 0. With EAS, every player starts at the beginning of each Arena season with 1500.
*) For ELO, every ranked game counts (Arena + Non-Arena games). For EAS, only all Arena games of a single season count.

[Jellby]

The K factor may be different in EAS and ELO too.

[dschingis27]

But most importantly, the FAQ does not mention that levels have an impact on EAS (as you claim) because that is not the case.
EAS is hidden until you reach Elite. Therefore EAS is impacted by levels when calculating scores,

Because it is hidden, therefore EAS is impacted by levels? As others pointed out, EAS is not impacted by levels/leagues. But somehow I would be genuinely curious how you thought levels impacted EAS?

The K factor may be different in EAS and ELO too.

The K factor for EAS in Arena mode is 40, the K factor for Elo in normal mode is 20.

[euklid314]

The K factor may be different in EAS and ELO too.

Yes, true. And there is a no-ELO-loss cap as long as one is below 100 ELO. I dont know if K factors change with AES, probably not, because one starts with 1500 and not at 0. No need to accelerate with higher K factors.

Those differences were the reason why I phrased it "more-or-less the same" and "with some differences". I was just mentioning the two most important differences between ELO and EAS calculation (which for instance explain why EAS scores are much higher than ELO scores)...

[BackGa]

But most importantly, the FAQ does not mention that levels have an impact on EAS (as you claim) because that is not the case.
EAS is hidden until you reach Elite. Therefore EAS is impacted by levels when calculating scores,

Because it is hidden, therefore EAS is impacted by levels? As others pointed out, EAS is not impacted by levels/leagues. But somehow I would be genuinely curious how you thought levels impacted EAS?

Neither would I get clue about what:"EAS is hidden until you reach Elite. Therefore EAS is impacted by levels when calculating scores," means so here is the full quote, prior it was cut, demeaning it (which you should know as you shortened it ) : "EAS is hidden until you reach Elite. Therefore EAS is impacted by levels when calculating scores, you just don't see it. If it was not impacted by levels, we'd all have EAS 1500 once we reach Elite and it is not the case..."

Well, until you reach Elite, should you defeat a n-3 opponent, you earn 0 league points (stars). I cannot be sure as EAS and league data don't show simultaneously but doesn't it makes sense, in that case, that your (hidden) EAS earns 0 points too? Which answers your question.
I didn't know before Euklid told me (thanks) that we all start in Arena with a (hidden) EAS of 1500. Should it not be impacted by/in/through leagues, we'd all have EAS 1500 when entering Elite, which is not the cas because it was impacted by leagues.

The K factor may be different in EAS and ELO too.

The K factor for EAS in Arena mode is 40, the K factor for Elo in normal mode is 20.
Good to know thxlp

[BackGa]

Yes, Remkar, that was what I tried to say. Your explanation is probably clearer than mine.

I want to give the example with numbers. Lets take a recent game that BackGa won against TAVLII:
BackGa:
ELO-Change 280 -> 289 (+9)
EAS-Change 1595 -> 1611 (+16)
TAVLII:
ELO-Change 220 -> 212 (-8)
EAS-Change 1526 -> 1510 (-16)

If the same game had been played with TAVLII in Platin league (and an EAS of 1526) and BackGa in Gold league (and an EAS of 1595) then after the game TAVLII would end with an EAS of 1510 (-16), perhaps losing some shields in his Platin Level and BackGa would end with an EAS of 1611 (+16), perhaps winning some shields in his Gold Level.

Thus, the EAS calculation (No.3 in Remkars explanation) is independent of Arena levels (No. 2 in Remkars explanation) and also independent of the players ELO (No. 1 in Remkars list). If you want to calculate the EAS change, you only have to know the EAS of both players and the game result. Nothing else is plugged into the EAS formula.

The formula to calculate EAS is more or less the same as the formula to calculate ELO - with some differences. The most important are:
*) With ELO, every player starts at 0. With EAS, every player starts at the beginning of each Arena season with 1500.
*) For ELO, every ranked game counts (Arena + Non-Arena games). For EAS, only all Arena games of a single season count.

Yes thanks Euklid, got it, I guess I learnt through my almost 13K games, on BGA..

Also to all, sounds like we all agree since long and we all have access and read the FAQs.
I would also ask you to consider opening another topic as we are totally beside the point of my initial point of a defective points calculations prior to Elite