Red Tumbs Galore

[Keseph]

I just had a player resort to Kingmaking (3 player game) in a game where she had no possibility to win, or even come in second place.
Normally this is just a bummer and you take a note and move on. Sometimes is just someone desperately trying to get to 2nd place and ends up * someone over.
In this case however, it was so blatant that I felt I should report the player. I found out that you can't report players for kingmaking. Why is that? You can report a player for calling you a kingmaker, if you are offended by that, but not if someone is actually doing it? That's really strange...

I was advised to give the player a red thumb instead, only I don't think this is the best way to proceed in these cases. I want to discourage people from doing this, not stop playing against them. So many players have * attitudes in Arena, that we would end up not playing many people if we can't cope with a little spiteful or plain stupid attitudes here and there. Yet, when the cheating is really clear, we should be allowed to see players penalised for it. It's not that I'm not taking the risk of getting penalised myself. After all, the website warns you about the consequences of wrongfully reporting someone.
I consider myself to have good self-confidence and self-love, but not to a point where I think that not playing against me is any type of punishment

I understand that the way things are give a lot less work to the moderator, but this isn't the way to educate players. Please consider allowing these type of reports. You are still able to penalize anyone who wrongfully wastes your time. Or, at the very least, allow your premium members to do it.

*moderator report: please remember to use family-friendly language on BGA

[GTSchemer]

If a player in 3rd place cannot win, but must still take turns and suffer through the game, it is not cheating if they make moves allowed by the rules.

[Keseph]

Are you even allowed to cheat in BGA? I mean game rules wise. I think not. What I mean by cheating is going against the BGA rules (kingmaking would be such a way).
And about suffering through games that are already lost, there's an even better solution for players other than red thumbing someone. Just don't play. Or learn to be miserable alone. Just ruining someone else's game, because one's out of the a chance to win is pretty imature.
We've all been there. Some have a spine, some don't. It is what it is.
That's why I would rather still have a chance to report people in edge cases.
I don't give a * about insults in chat. But I actually think it is much more insulting wasting other people's time by ruining a game.

*Moderator edit: Cursing is not permitted on BGA. Please use Family Friendly communication.

[nik592]

I was advised to give the player a red thumb instead, only I don't think this is the best way to proceed in these cases. I want to discourage people from doing this, not stop playing against them.

For one thing, what you may perceive as kingmaking may just be playing on the part of the other player. If they're not doing it intentionally, they probably don't deserve to be punished for it. And proving kingmaking is pretty hard - hence why I think the mods don't take it on.

The idea of red thumbs is that if a player keeps displaying bad behaviour, more and more people will red thumb them. Eventually, lots of red thumbs affects their karma and/or significantly reduces the pool of people they can play with. It does work, but it takes time - and repeated bad behaviour. And really, I don't think a person should be publicly called out (so others stop playing with them) for one instance of (alleged) kingmaking.

[Suoivax]

Kingmaking is very hard to prove.

I like 7 Wonders.

I * at drafting.

If the guy to my left wins because I handed him the card he needed, is it because I wanted him to win or because I * at drafting?


*moderator edit: please don't curse in the Forums. really, this is a family-friendly platform, please express yourself appropriately.

[Meeplelowda]

If the guy to my left wins because I handed him the card he needed, is it because I wanted him to win or because I * at drafting?

Or in games with no undo you simply misclicked. The signal to noise ratio in kingmaking allegations is very low.

[Keseph]

I agree with that. That's why I said that most of the time it is just unfortunate and you move on. Yet other times, like the one I experienced, it is just too obvious. Now I understand that can always be an excuse to it, but that hardly makes it something else. Kind of like a lie. People get caught lying and they have all sorts of excuses and explanations, but that doesn't transform a lie in a truth.
Kingmaking is kingmaking. And sometimes it is achieved indirectly, by practical means, such as you needing to help a player win, to finish second youself. Or if you have no other cards, or misclick, and so on... That would be kingmaking by collateral damage. I can dig that.
Ever once in a while though, someone does it because of spite, or just because they need to influence a race that they are otherwise out of, maybe because they are bored. In those cases, I think we should have the possibility to report that.
I mean two of us have already been moderated in this thread alone for using a couple of not that offensive words, which weren't even aimed at anyone, but we can't complain about someone ruining a game? We are forced to choose not to ever play with that person again. No chance at educating somebody. That just seems very incoherent when everyone needs to be respectful and understanding at a christian heaven level and when you consider how fast you can get moderated around here for writting something mildly offensive.
So, for the sake of being inclusive and not just banish people, please allow player to complain, without just red thumbing everyone.
(Hopefully I haven't used any offensive words this time, and sarcasm, and a sense of humor are not yet moderated as well)

[nik592]

I mean two of us have already been moderated in this thread alone for using a couple of not that offensive words, which weren't even aimed at anyone, but we can't complain about someone ruining a game? We are forced to choose not to ever play with that person again. No chance at educating somebody. That just seems very incoherent when everyone needs to be respectful and understanding at a christian heaven level and when you consider

Your post was edited, you weren't really moderated, it has no effect on your reputation (unless you keep doing it, I'd imagine). While I think some of the "curse words" that seem to get edited out on the forums aren't really curse words, it doesn't hurt me too much to adjust what I'm posting.

As to educating, if the person wasn't doing it deliberately, educating isn't going to help as they probably won't even remember what moves they made that you considered kingmaking. If they were doing it deliberately, but it was a one-time, I'm bored, so let's just try this, then they're probably not going to do it again anyway. If they do, or if this wasn't their first time, it's something they do regularly, eventually multiple red thumbs will have an impact (if people use them). And someone who is regularly gaming probably knows kingmaking is not ok.

There might be the odd case where the above isn't true. But for that minimal benefit, you want the mods to spend their time trying to verify if every report of kingmaking is accurate and then "educating" in the vast majority of cases where it probably would do nothing anyway? I get why the mods would prefer not to spend their time on that - there is only so much moderating they can do. Better to save it for more serious/obvious cases (and obviously editing curse words out of the forums But in fairness, at least those cases are cut and dried and quick to handle).

[Keseph]

My post was edited and I was actually moderated. I got a message about it and had to check a box saying I agreed with the moderation before I was even informed about what it was about. Since it was about writing one of those non-curse words, I was a little intrigued. I also got a Karma penalty.
I hope the reason behind not being able to report players for their actions during games (other than written words) is not about moderators not wanting the work. It's not like this is slave labour. Why don't you just red flag a player that offended you in some way? Written text is still subject to some type of evaluation. And is far more subjective, since people get offended for very different things. Still, you can report that. If that was the real reason, then there would be some lack of coherency again. Since on was side we'd have a lack of will to actually punish bad actions and on the other hand, an over zealous approach that moderates people for writing not so family friendly words.
I'm not saying that the moderators are wrong. They are God almighty over here. They are never wrong.
What I ask is the opportunity to report people for what they do, not just what they say, and still be penalyzed myself if I use that right in a wrong way.
Other than that, we can, and should have different oppinions.

[nik592]

I hope the reason behind not being able to report players for their actions during games (other than written words) is not about moderators not wanting the work.

I'm not part of the moderation team, so I am only speculating myself. However, I can imagine how difficult it would be to prove someone is cheating/kingmaking/whatever by reviewing games. In games where at least some information is hidden, even if a player's behaviour seems like obvious kingmaking to you or possible kingmaking since the move seems of no benefit to them, you don't know what they had to work with. I play a lot on here with my partner, and every now and again he makes what I would consider a nonsensical move and I'll ask him IRL, why did you do that? Occasionally he admits (as do I) that he just made a mistake. Sometimes he will explain what he has in his hidden information that gave him no choice - and there have been times when knowing that makes his nonsensical move make sense. Proving poor gameplay behaviour can be hard. If you don't like a player's behaviour, you remove them from people you play with. Enough people do that, and they are moderated that way. Also, if you've already red-thumbed them then it doesn't much matter if they are moderated or not - you believe there is a problem with their behaviour and you won't have to play with them anymore. Yes, there might be something to be said for warning others, but then again, what if you were wrong?

Moderating on the basis of what was said is much easier, especially when the policy is (as it seems to be here), insulting anyone or repeatedly using bad language, for any reason, even if it's retaliatory, isn't tolerated. It's clear cut. So I'm not saying that mods don't want the work, more that that work of reviewing gameplay behaviour is highly subjective, difficult to prove, and where the mods ultimately decide it wasn't kingmaking, it still results in the same kind of complaints we see in the forums anyway. Plus the odd complaint from someone who believes they were moderated unfairly. It's about cost-benefit, and this is just my opinion, but there seems like a decent amount of cost for very little benefit.