Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

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Andrewsmile
Posts: 92
Joined: 14 May 2020, 23:33

Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by Andrewsmile »

Hello, I'm Andrewsmile the #1 ranked Challengers! arena player for 99% of the season, and I thought I'd put together a tierlist because its a question I get asked fairly consistently especially because I have some pretty controversial opinions about this game (MUA is terrible, sailor is better than UFO, etc). I stole the tier list format from Fletcheese, another great player who published a guide linked in the tier list that gives a great overview to the general strategy of the game. I tried to organize the tiers based on my drafting strategy and give clarifying notes on each card. Let me know what you think :)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I also thought I would take this opportunity to go a bit more in detail about a note I made in the Jester slot, because that card has a not-readily-apparent drawback that I think make it, MUA, blacksmith, and movie star significantly worse- namely the need to run independently bad cards to make it good. Because its support cards are generally bad, the jester and the newcomers work best when removed as a unit. If you cut just the newcomers or just the jesters, the other stack becomes MUCH worse and is barely worth running at all barring other support. Consider the following situation which I don't think is uncommon for many players: Going into round 4, your first foray into B deck, and your deck is as follows: 3x newcomer; 1x dog; 1x champion; 2x jester; 2x movie star; 2x gangster (perhaps you saw double movie star turn 1 but you weren't able to find makeup artist in subsequent rounds). This is a great deck on turn 3 and in the early game, so you've probably won all 3 rounds so far. However, you don't see any pairs or particularly good cards in the B deck, so you reroll, and again no duplicates. Say the 2nd hand is one each of the 5 power animals just as an example. You take a rubber duck and a horse, but what do you cut? You have too many duplicates to safely run 7 uniques, so you will need to cut 2 stacks. Cutting the dog is an easy choice, but what about the next stack? Cutting newcomers is obviously bad, because both jesters and movie stars need them. Cutting movie stars or jesters feels bad because they could both be worth 4 power each. Gangsters are similarly powerful. You probably cut your champion, but its pretty early for that and in return for 10 power you cut 7, meaning your deck got only marginally better and if you cant find duplicates next round you will probably stall out and not make the final. In a vacuum, you would easily cut newcomers here instead of champion but since you are running jester and movie star you are a bit stuck with running the newcomers which are very bad on their own. This is just one example but is indicative of a not-uncommon problem. Hopefully that makes sense, let me know if you agree with my reasoning :)
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gabegolfer
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by gabegolfer »

With all the top players making their knowledge so assessable, how will the nature of the game change? It seems like the mid pack players, say ranks 25-300 would quickly catch up, no?


Thanks Andrewsmile
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Two-Sheds
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by Two-Sheds »

gabegolfer wrote: 29 August 2023, 14:43 With all the top players making their knowledge so assessable, how will the nature of the game change? It seems like the mid pack players, say ranks 25-300 would quickly catch up, no?
They've probably gotten bored with the lack of competition! :lol:

Time for me to study up and start my climb from #815 :twisted:
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Andrewsmile
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by Andrewsmile »

gabegolfer wrote: 29 August 2023, 14:43 With all the top players making their knowledge so assessable, how will the nature of the game change? It seems like the mid pack players, say ranks 25-300 would quickly catch up, no?
I think what's interesting is that in many games, knowledge like this won't matter. Because this game has a lot of luck, in say 15% of your games you will just not make the final even if you draft perfectly because opponent's decks will come together better and you will have bad draw luck. Similarly in 15% of games you will make the final on autopilot after finding all 3 AI for example. However, in the long run over dozens to hundreds of games everyone's luck will even out, so what will contribute to your rank are the games in the middle where you have to make crucial decisions about building your deck based on game knowledge and your best guess of what your opponents have. For example, there are some games where I will take 5 uniques into the final because I saw a player I thought had a worse deck beat a player with 4 vendors or something and I reason that they had to have used holograms so I will preemptively counterplay. Sometimes I am wrong, but I think it is plays like that that will help you climb more so than just knowing what cards are good, because at this point all the good players have a pretty good idea of whats good and what isnt (even if I think people overrate MUA). This is the reason I selfishly like that other matches are hidden in arena mode, it takes much much more intuition and skill to counterplay and it took me a long time to develop/refine that skillset.
Two-Sheds wrote: 29 August 2023, 15:17 They've probably gotten bored with the lack of competition! :lol:
Haha I do miss playing arena somewhat, it is too risky to play for me right now because the expected value is so bad- for reference once you get past 1700 you will gain about 10-15 points for 1st place, lose about 5 for second, lose about 20 for 3rd, and lose about 35 for 4th and its even worse for me up here in the 1740s. I don't want to lose my spot but if someone went on a great run and passed me I would enjoy the challenge :)
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Fletcheese
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by Fletcheese »

Andrewsmile wrote: 29 August 2023, 20:36 However, in the long run over dozens to hundreds of games everyone's luck will even out, so what will contribute to your rank are the games in the middle where you have to make crucial decisions about building your deck based on game knowledge and your best guess of what your opponents have.
This is really well said and why I enjoy games with randomness, especially autobattlers. A guide can give general advice but every game offers unique situations often with difficult skill testing decisions. And you never even know if you made the right ones. You have to keep questioning and reconsidering to try to improve.
Andrewsmile wrote: 29 August 2023, 20:36 ...if someone went on a great run and passed me I would enjoy the challenge :)
I'm working on it but have a long way to go again now... Wish me luck 😁
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GloriaVictis
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by GloriaVictis »

gabegolfer wrote: 29 August 2023, 14:43 With all the top players making their knowledge so assessable, how will the nature of the game change? It seems like the mid pack players, say ranks 25-300 would quickly catch up, no?
We all are kinda warming up until Challengers 2 comes out anyway :)

If it ever gets released on BGA thanks to the publisher and GTSchemer, the number of possible combos / synergies / anti-synergies between cards will get squared.
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gabegolfer
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by gabegolfer »

Yes, like whatever that new card is that puts exhausted cards back on top…
That could be fun with rescue pod or something.
I think there is a thread on BGG about all the leaked new cards
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sorryimlikethis
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by sorryimlikethis »

Thank you Andrew and Fletcheese for the threads. I always love reading up on strategy and both tier lists are pretty on point with how I view the cards. I can see both arguments for and against Makeup Artist. Andrew - are you really telling us you wouldn't pick double MUA on a redraw in round 1? :P

The more I play the more I realise how important luck mitigation is. I'm now fully on board the Sailor train. I always rated the ability, I just wasn't sure what you would draft it with. It turns out the answer is anything. What a great card. It actually allows you to have skill expression in a game that is nearly completely luck-based.
Theter
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Joined: 22 August 2023, 23:28

Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by Theter »

Hey I really like your spreadsheet Andrew, please let me share my thoughts about it (disclaimer : I'm nobody) :

- Typically agree that sailor and UFO are the most versatile and powerful cards. I would add Clairvoyant if it didn't compete with the UFO.

- Some of the cards are kinda difficult to rank because they heavily depend on support cards : While I also dislike MUAs and jesters, I think you underrate SFG, villains and submarines. They are all excellent cards as long as they are in a good environment.

- Necros and Vampire are riskier than I eventually thought at first. Depending on the amount of deck control you have, you will still have between 15 and 30% chance of them having almost no value (ptsd of my 3 necros going first :cry: ), and thats because they can also fail on pos 2 or 3 or even 4 as well.

- You may have overrated Mime and illusionist : Mime has high variance but ultimately is weaker than rubber duck, and while there is one less copy of rubber duck, you probably could last with a single copy of it, especially in a vendor deck. Illusionist suffers from flag condition (like the prince) and can fail if not in a dedicated deck (you need +2 to even out à 7 on the finale). I still find it better than teddy bear though.

- "Bard is a lot like cook" : Oh boy they are nothing alike. Bard is an attacker support (ghost, knight, vampire, holo, A cards) and flag condition enabler (cowboy, clairvoyant, prince, heroine), whereas cook is a defender support for already high value cards (hard 5s, hard 7s, villain, sub and boosted cards). If the +1 from cook made your opponent use one more card to take the flag, then cook probably repayed his value on the turn. I think you underrate bard.
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Andrewsmile
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Re: Rank 1 Challengers! Tierlist

Post by Andrewsmile »

sorryimlikethis wrote: 31 August 2023, 10:19 Andrew - are you really telling us you wouldn't pick double MUA on a redraw in round 1? :P
Thanks for the kind words, hope to catch your stream Sunday! The answer is yes- I would have to dig through replays but I have quite a few where I reroll past double MUA, and some when I roll into it and take other cards. Perhaps that has lost me a game here and there but long run my winrate has substantially improved since my clean break lol.
Theter wrote: 31 August 2023, 15:52 - Some of the cards are kinda difficult to rank because they heavily depend on support cards : While I also dislike MUAs and jesters, I think you underrate SFG, villains and submarines. They are all excellent cards as long as they are in a good environment.

- Necros and Vampire are riskier than I eventually thought at first. Depending on the amount of deck control you have, you will still have between 15 and 30% chance of them having almost no value (ptsd of my 3 necros going first :cry: ), and thats because they can also fail on pos 2 or 3 or even 4 as well.

- You may have overrated Mime and illusionist : Mime has high variance but ultimately is weaker than rubber duck, and while there is one less copy of rubber duck, you probably could last with a single copy of it, especially in a vendor deck. Illusionist suffers from flag condition (like the prince) and can fail if not in a dedicated deck (you need +2 to even out à 7 on the finale). I still find it better than teddy bear though.

- "Bard is a lot like cook" : Oh boy they are nothing alike. Bard is an attacker support (ghost, knight, vampire, holo, A cards) and flag condition enabler (cowboy, clairvoyant, prince, heroine), whereas cook is a defender support for already high value cards (hard 5s, hard 7s, villain, sub and boosted cards). If the +1 from cook made your opponent use one more card to take the flag, then cook probably repayed his value on the turn. I think you underrate bard.
Good thoughts, thanks for sharing :) I'll do my best to address some of them.
1."as long as they are in a good environment" is the kicker here, its hard for me to consistently encounter that environment so they get a consistency penalty

2.15-30% isnt very high, I think expected value puts them very high because potential upside (extreme recursion of high value cards) outweighs the downside (-2 or 3 power compared to the vanilla card you would have drafted instead)

3. Deck control and more copies I think makes mime better but point taken. Yes in pure expected value mime is 4 power compared to duck 5, but extra copy and extra chances to move it higher with sailor and clairvoyant and butler/vacuum boost it above in my experience

4. Bard is a lot like cook in that they are weaker cards power wise that get better the more duplicates you have. True that cook benefits from going tall while bard benefits from going wide, but typically you want your deck to be tall rather than wide so cook is typically better. Bard also suffers from the fact that it is a 4 power C card, the other 2 4 power C cards (vamp and holo) introduce extreme upside potential that the bard doesnt have
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