Is Secret Oath too powerful?

[Dan Jenkinson]

I've had a number of games recently where the person who got Secret Oath just ran away with the game with little the other player could do about it. In particular cards like Arcane Tactics let you stack the deck so the opponent basically doesn't even get a turn.

Has anyone found any good or consistent way to counter it?

[SolaireLight]

It's completely busted to the point where there are multiple ways to keep your opponent from having a turn while it is active. You can also use aftershock and contamination. It also combos with way too many cards like Toxic Gift, Shared Power, Reckless Assault, Contamination, Aftershock, Arcane Tactics, etc.

The card isn't just busted but it's UNFUN. It doesn't feel fun to win with and it feels awful to lose against. It's one of the only cards you have to counter draft against or you auto lose. It's crazy because this game is carefully balanced, almost too carefully and then you have this insanely busted card out of nowhere.

The devs claim it's OK because in their testing it still came out to around 50/50 when people had this card. Well even if that's true, it's not a fun card. If I owned the physical game I would just shred it so I never had to deal with it. I've had a game where I had growth and then Secret Oath appeared for grabs halfway through the game and my opponent got it and then suddenly I lost all of my threes AND fours. How is that fun? It's not. There was nothing I could do but just lose.

[miodaibuki]

not op as a single card. but too many available combos, too few counters
and it is a 2 cost on-going, hard to counter with Delusion
so yeah in general i think it's kind of broken. a must-take spell

[Mr Zee]

I agree that this card is meta-warping.

I recently had a game where my opponent took "Secret Oath" as their first pick. I managed to pull all the best counters, including Delusion and Vile Laughter. I still lost by 3 points.

[EdElricson]

I totally agree with adding more counters to Secret Oath. I came up with some suggested cards that might counter it.

One suggested card: choose a number. Deal damage equal to this number times how many cards in your opponents hand have value equal to this number.
This card could become broken by itself as it comboes very well with 'give your opponent a card'-type spells. However it would be weak without one.
Maybe the mana cost could be equal to the number you're guessing+1.

A second card suggestion:
Your opponent must discard the highest card in his hand. Deal damage equal to its power. Your opponent must randomly discard a number of cards of your choice up to the damage dealt with this card and draw an equal number of cards from the deck. Card costs 2 mana cards to activate.
This is very similar to the 'steal the highest card in your opponents hand and deal damage equal to its power'-card with the difference that you don't gain a card but instead can make your opponent re-draw cards.
Edit: Or maybe just deal 1 additional damage instead of re-drawing a number of cards.

A third card suggestion: your opponent draws 3 cards and then gives you the highest mana in his hand. Deal damage equal to how many more cards than you he has. Card costs 2 mana cards to activate.

Fourth suggestion: 4's are worth 5 on your turn and 3 on your opponent's turn. Ongoing effect.

[southburg]

Another suggestion/variant: Secret Oath discards mana on it for each card it steals.

Or the mana card is given to the opponent instead of discarding it.

If that's not enough, then also deal damage, equal to 4 minus the discarded mana to the owner of the Secret Oath.

[EdElricson]

@southburg, Secret Oath has a 43% win rate (data from a tournament). The solution to Secret Oath is not to give it a direct debuff. The problem is that new players don't know how to defend against it and that the card ends up taking lots of space in games.

I still think implementing counters to Secret Oath is a good idea, but perhaps entirely reworking Secret Oath (not just debuffing) would be the best idea (given that we're not leaving Secret Oath as-is).

Suggestion for Secret Oath-replacement: Whenever your opponent draws cards(from draw-3 or spell activations): if his highest card is higher than your highest card, trade those two cards. If not, you may choose to discard a card from your hand to draw a card from the deck. The comboes are much less powerful. For example, you can stack a 4 on the deck each turn and trade it with a 1 (much less powerful than Secret Oath). Still, it is more reliable than Secret Oath as it is activated every turn. The card becomes a counter against high-card based strategies with low draw.

[Ceaseless]

@southburg, Secret Oath has a 43% win rate (data from a tournament). The solution to Secret Oath is not to give it a direct debuff. The problem is that new players don't know how to defend against it and that the card ends up taking lots of space in games.

I still think implementing counters to Secret Oath is a good idea, but perhaps entirely reworking Secret Oath (not just debuffing) would be the best idea (given that we're not leaving Secret Oath as-is).

Suggestion for Secret Oath-replacement: Whenever your opponent draws cards(from draw-3 or spell activations): if his highest card is higher than your highest card, trade those two cards. If not, you may choose to discard a card from your hand to draw a card from the deck. The comboes are much less powerful. For example, you can stack a 4 on the deck each turn and trade it with a 1 (much less powerful than Secret Oath). Still, it is more reliable than Secret Oath as it is activated every turn. The card becomes a counter against high-card based strategies with low draw.

That depends on what the win/loss rate is based off of. Here's a question. What are the most reliable way(s) to determine if a player with Secret Oath will win/lose the game? How correlated is it with ratings? How correlated is it with what cards either player has? How correlated is it with whether you're the first turn or first attacker? More generically speaking, are the win/loss rates of Secret Oath based on decisions a player makes (and for that matter, which player), or factors outside of their control?

Anecdotally, I find the card often feels out of our control, flopping or breaking a game for things we can't do anything about. I suspect a lot of players feel the same way, which is why it has more negative reactions than cards that may have greater success on average, such as a more efficient mana generator, which just lets the player using it get into the game better, but doesn't really hamper the opposing player at all, so they still get to play. That said, anecdotes aren't necessarily how things regularly go. I can't speak for how accurate my recollections of the card are for how it regularly operates.

I don't think Secret Oath is the kind of card that needs replaced if it were to be removed from the game. It's not strictly based on how successful it is, some effects are more annoying for players than others. How a card leads a player to victory might be more important, to a certain extent, than with how reliably it leads them it victory. Players may be less concerned about cards that consistently win but let both players play a good game than cards that are less consistent but throw the game out of wack one way or the other.

[Mr Zee]

I would just like to say that the game feels like a lot more fun right now, with Secret Oath banned.

It feels like we're actually playing "Wizards of the Grimoire" now, instead of playing "How can I work around/exploit Secret Oath"

[Stalloner]

I support Mr Zee, this was a good ban from the devs.