Suggested improvements to the Exchange Center (and Basket Carrier)

[torvaldur_makan]

The Exchange Center is the button at the top of the screen where you do various conversions. All major improvements uses this screen to do conversions. Additionally, some (but not all) hand cards uses this menu as well.

What this does is that it is very easy to forget to use the few cards that are timing dependent that also uses this menu. Specifically two cards are mentioned here, namely Basket Carrier and Ebonist. Personally, I have forgotten to use these cards several times even though I know they are in the Exchange Center. Occasionally I also forget to use for example Joinery, if I already have enough food to feed.

Several people have filed bug reports about these cards because they think they are not working:
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=93018
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=72590
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=73523
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=83026
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=67734
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=95810
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=109130
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=114507
And forum threads:
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36079
https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35864

And there are a couple Suggestions to move the effect of these cards out of Exchange Center:
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=72527
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=70829

I guess the confusion comes from that there is no consistency as to how the cards are implemented. Below I list examples of where cards handle their effects (and the timing of their effect):

In Exchange Center
Joinery, Pottery, BMW (each harvest)
Basket Carrier (each harvest)
Stone Carrier (each harvest)
Ebonist (each harvest)
Schnapps Distiller (feeding phase of each harvest)
Beer Tap (feeding phase of each harvest)
Fireplace (at any time)
Hard Porcelain (at any time)
Clay Firer (at any time)
Sheep Walker (at any time)
Grain -> 1 food (at any time)
Vegetable -> 1 food (at any time)
Bake (when using a bake action)

NOT in Exchange Center and instead their own button
Beer Keg (feeding phase of each harvest)
Beer Stall (feeding phase of each harvest)
Craft Brewery (feeding phase of each harvest)
Feed Pellets (feeding phase of each harvest)
Home Brewer (field phase of each harvest)
Cube Cutter (field phase of each harvest)
Furniture Carpenter (each harvest)
Kettle (at any time)
Clay Carrier (at any time)
...and many more...

I think it is established at this point that players do not understand how the UI works in this regard and even if they do, they still make mistakes. The conclusion I draw is that it is not the fault of the players but the UI.



Proposed solution

• Have all cards with "at any time" timing in the Exchange Center along with grain and vegetable to 1 food and Discard Resources.
• Give all timing dependent cards their own button outside of Exchange Center, including the guilds (Joinery, Pottery, BMW)
• Move Bake conversions out of Exchange Center, possibly to a nested button scheme like when you have a Plow.

This suggestion in the bug report system.

I'm sure there are other possible solutions. If you have any ideas, please share them.

[cowboy_dan]

I think having the card in your tableau have a halo when you can use it works well. So a fireplace would have a halo if you have an animal or vegetable, the joinery will have a halo during the feeding phase of a harvest if you have wood and have not yet used it this harvest, etc.

[nswoll]

Yeah Basket Carrier makes no sense to be there. I almost reported a bug before I finally figured it out.

[Acerbic]

Hi Torvaldur,

Thanks for the time you spent thinking about this and posting your suggestion. I don't want to get too caught up in the card-by-card details, but I'll just say that I disagree with your overall assessment of the consistency. The vast majority of cards are implemented in a predictable fashion and the ones that aren't typically had some programming difficulties associated with them that forced us to deviate. In addition, I think almost all - if not all - of these deviations are cases where we should have used the exchanges window, but were forced to use a button instead. In other words, they have deviated towards more visibility.

You quoted some bug reports as evidence that this is an issue, but I can tell you that we have received countless of false bug reports about a wide variety of issues. Agricola is a complicated game and I have seen every type of misunderstanding and disagreement at this point. All in all, I'm less alarmed by these reports than you are. Of course I have sympathy for people who forget conversions - I've been there myself - but I also think this is a lesson you learn quickly. The most the game asks of you is to check the exchanges screen 6 times per game before feeding and typically less than that. I don't think this is an unreasonable ask.

As for your suggestion:
- This would be a time intensive task that I'm not sure any developer is eager to take on
- This would create a bigger visual clutter of buttons that IMO is less elegant than the status quo
- This would complicate feeding by forcing you to switch between buttons on the main screen and the exchanges window. In the current situation, you can execute pretty much everything from within the exchanges window (and with a more convenient reset button to boot)

However, I have been thinking about visual clarity a lot recently and this is certainly on my radar. Something like cowboy dan's suggestion may turn out to be much simpler and just as effective of a reminder

[RicardoRix]

However, I have been thinking about visual clarity a lot recently and this is certainly on my radar. Something like cowboy dan's suggestion may turn out to be much simpler and just as effective of a reminder

That's firmly in the computer-aided play camp.

[Acerbic]

However, I have been thinking about visual clarity a lot recently and this is certainly on my radar. Something like cowboy dan's suggestion may turn out to be much simpler and just as effective of a reminder

That's firmly in the computer-aided play camp.

If you're contending that clarity and visual reminders somehow sully the purity of the game, I couldn't disagree more. Should we also stop displaying the resource counts for every player and just display a pile of tokens for people to count manually, as you would in real life? If your victories hinge on people forgetting to activate a card - something that is exceedingly more likely to happen online than in real life - I'd say your strategies could be a bit more robust

[RicardoRix]

It's all a very grey area, but BGA guidelines suggest to avoid computer aided play. You're making a board game adaption. You should try and not provide any more information than is readily available. No straw man arguments, please.

Why exactly are you highlighting the card? And this is without ANY user input.... This is computer aided play.

Counting tokens is a passive thing. No big deal. You're only saving time to a conclusion that everyone can already get to.
If you would then highlight the tokens to remind the player that they can have enough to feed their family, then this is computer aided play.

You should remember, that while trivial as it may be, that this is all part of playing the game. I do not want a plethora of additional information to help aid me play my best ever game possible. I just want to play the board game on a computer. If I make a mistake, then so be it.

[Acerbic]

I'm not making any straw man arguments - I'm pointing out that if a simple suggestion like this is "computer aided play" then you should take issue with many aspects of the implementations, and in fact should probably stay away from rule-enforced digital implementations altogether, since there are many things one could easily forget in real life that are much harder to forget online.

Here are some differences between real life play and BGA play:
- BGA calculates the upcoming harvest cost for you at all times, making it impossible to forget about modifications to it (e.g. Child's Toy)
- BGA shows you all payment options when you take an action, making it impossible to forget using a discount you are entitled to
- BGA shows you which action spaces are usable and which are not, making it much less likely that you forget modifications to this (e.g. discounts for renovation, Sleeping Corner, Foreign Aid, etc) or plan a sequence incorrectly
- BGA summarizes everyone's resources neatly, greatly reducing the chance that you miss important thresholds (e.g. room parts, fencing parts, improvement costs, feeding)

The suggestion isn't even about synthesizing information, only about displaying whether a card is activatable or not, which is not only in line with the philosophy of the implementation as a whole, but in fact near identical to how many cards already work. Trowel, Pellet Press, Plow Builder, Clearing Spade, Stone Buyer -- all of these and more already cleanly indicate and visually remind you when they're usable and consequently fall under your broad definition of computer-aided play.

[RicardoRix]

I'm not making any straw man arguments - I'm pointing out that if a simple suggestion like this is "computer aided play" then you should take issue with many aspects of the implementations, and in fact should probably stay away from rule-enforced digital implementations altogether, since there are many things one could easily forget in real life that are much harder to forget online.

Why are you telling me how I should think or act. I am entitled to an opinion. I can make judgments and play games as freely I as like. You are making assumptions about my reasoning which is wrong. I would agree that I am perhaps on the sensitive side of computer aided play argument. But it's a grey area, you can't force things into black and white.

You will of course, take considerations into account however you feel best, that is your entitlement. You've done a great job so far, you should be commended. The conversion center works very well, putting extra shiny reminder helpers is a step too far IMO. Just helping you not to fall down a slippery slope... Why does the computer not tell me X.
As you suggest maybe certain cards and actions just work best (coding style) in a prompt when appropriate kind of way. This is of course acceptable.

[hunwee]

However, I have been thinking about visual clarity a lot recently and this is certainly on my radar. Something like cowboy dan's suggestion may turn out to be much simpler and just as effective of a reminder

I also think that cowboy dan's suggestion is a very good idea.