Expell Timer is a joke

[Nelsok06]

I also had a game where the opposing player kept going overtime. But not by much. This is a game they started that I jumped into. So I did not boot them We continued to play after about 30 minutes in the other player started sending me the proposed quit the game option. Which I turned down. If they wanted to quit then that's fine but I wasn't going to not get the win. As I was winning this game. Then next thing I know they send this proposed quit the game again. So then I tried to message them to figure out what the deal was and because my timing ran out it didn't booted me from the game and I get bad karma a loss and so forth when the whole time I had been playing the game and keeping way under time they had been going over. A little ridiculous. One is the timer. But the other issue is people should only be able to propose a group quit of the game once or twice not a bunch of times. All this does is make it to where now when I get somebody who goes overtime I don't even try to give them the opportunity to play I just boot them. Which sucks because it's poor sportsmanship

[Propaganda Panda]

This topic always comes up from time to time, and I can only give everybody the same advice: Expel anybody who goes over the time limit and don't be salty when it happens to you. It's not poor sportmanship to give someone a loss on time, on the contrary: It's poor sportsmanship to accept a match and then not keep within the stipulated time constraints. In chess, once your clock runs down, the match is over, it shouldn't be any different in other boardgames. Obviously I am not advocating for this when you play with your friends, but in a competitive environment, it's fair game.

It may not seem gentlemanlike, but trust me: Even if you are being courteous, there is no guarantee that your opponent will return the favour. I had to learn it the hard way: I was once in a very complicated and close game on Silver Lake and also played on my phone, which made everything even slower. Both of us were preparing our final big turn, which included multiple actions (as it often happens on this map). My opponent was first and ran out of time, but I found it petty to expel them on the last move, so I let it slip. Then I did my turn (with double determination), I also went over the time limit, and my opponent immediately expelled me. It wasn't even clear if they wouldn't had won anyway, but I had to swallow not only the guaranteed L, but also the additional elo and reputation penalty. In that moment, I was seething, but in retrospect, I totally deserved it for being so naive, and since then, I've expelled every single opponent that has run out of time without any bad conscience.

If you are constantly being expelled, you need to either play faster or choose a slower game mode. I just had another opponent who complained about his expulsion and got quite rude, but okay, I understand the emotions. But once I checked their profile, it turned out that they had ran out of time 20x in the last 60 days, so it's a reoccuring issue. Everybody runs out of time sometimes, even the best players, but if it happens so often, it's a me-problem, not a you-problem.

There's nothing wrong with being more comfortable in a more leisurely time setting, but then don't join fast games. People also need to see the other perspective: For experienced players, a lot of games are just a chore to get through because the opponent takes so long. In many of my games, I spend at least half of my time playing Minesweeper in another tab because the pace is so glacial, I hope this doesn't sound too disrespectful. But it can be very frustrating - when fully focussed, a top player can play nearly every game in 10-15 minutes, so if your opponent takes more than 20 minutes, the gaming experience begins to suffer. The BGA time increment is not optimal, so even in fast games, I've had opponents which needed 40+ minutes.

With all that said, communication is key. If somebody asked me for more time because of a legitimately intricate turn or because they have to unexpectedly go afk for a few minutes, I usually comply. So if you are in jeopardy of losing on time, there's nothing wrong with asking your opponnent to let the game continue. Just don't be angry if they refuse, it's their right to insist on the time format which was agreed upon by both sides when accepting the game.

[RicardoRix]

You have generally good advice, but..you're missing the point that Ark Nova specifically has some occasional very long turns (determination and copious additional bonuses). This is not normal, and doesn't fit into the BGA's time model that covers all games.

It would be nice if BGA somehow come up with a particular solution to this. 10 pages of forum posts suggests it's not just a 'adjust your playing style' problem.

[Propaganda Panda]

You have generally good advice, but..you're missing the point that Ark Nova specifically has some occasional very long turns (determination and copious additional bonuses). This is not normal, and doesn't fit into the BGA's time model that covers all games.

It would be nice if BGA somehow come up with a particular solution to this. 10 pages of forum posts suggests it's not just a 'adjust your playing style' problem.

You are absolutely right that BGA can make our lives much easier with some QOL updates, the interface is very fiddly in general. There was just an update which lets you take all monetary income in one click, which seems like a great step in the right direction!

Also, I am very critical of the additional elo penalty for a time-out. You already lose the game and some karma, I don't quite understand why this must be a thing.

That said, while it is indeed easier to time out in Ark Nova than in other games, if you look through the matches of strong players, none of them get in time trouble regularly, even in fast mode. So it is definitely possible to play the game in 10-15 minutes, even with the flawed BGA UI. Which brings us back to the time mode - it's totally fine if someone can't play it in such little time, but then they should just choose normal or even slow mode. Especially in slow mode, it's basically impossible to run out of time. To reiterate the chess comparison: Not everybody can play bullet, actually most players can't, they play blitz or rapid instead. But if you opt into a bullet game, you need to be aware that some urgency and fast calculation skills are required. On BGA, it's the same with fast vs. normal vs. slow mode (or just play turn-based, then time is never an issue anyway).

[bialix]

I don't think comparison with chess is fair.

1) In chess you only move one figure a time, you don't make 3-4 moves in your turn, right? All this thread is about complex turns where you have Sun Bear, Eagle, Doubled Action, whatever. Why you say -- it's fault of the player?

2) In chess you got the timer for overall game, not for single turn, right? So if you ran out of time -- that's your fault for entire game, not penalizing for the very last turn, right?

I was expelled just today making complex move WHEN I triggered end of the game. Is it fair?

At least stop my unfinshed turn if *I* triggered end of the game. That's already end of the game. So my opponent just used expel as weapon to prevent his lose. And now I get minus to my karma.

Stop pretending Ark Nova is chess. That's ridiculous!

[CharlesRDarwin]

I don't think comparison with chess is fair.

1) In chess you only move one figure a time, you don't make 3-4 moves in your turn, right? All this thread is about complex turns where you have Sun Bear, Eagle, Doubled Action, whatever. Why you say -- it's fault of the player?

2) In chess you got the timer for overall game, not for single turn, right? So if you ran out of time -- that's your fault for entire game, not penalizing for the very last turn, right?

I was expelled just today making complex move WHEN I triggered end of the game. Is it fair?

At least stop my unfinshed turn if *I* triggered end of the game. That's already end of the game. So my opponent just used expel as weapon to prevent his lose. And now I get minus to my karma.

Stop pretending Ark Nova is chess. That's ridiculous!

I've played a lot more chess than Ark Nova.

#1 some moves in chess are much more complex than others. Some take almost no time (e.g. you only have one legal move). On the other end of the spectrum, Garry Kasparov once took 84 minutes for a turn in a timed match.

#2 Every chess game is different. In some you get a set amount for the whole game. With the advent of automatic clocks and computer chess, commonly players get an "increment" each turn of a few seconds. In classical (long) chess, you often get extra time after 40 moves. There are chess competitions where you get a fixed amount of time for each move. I played a competition where it was 10 sec/ move, tuned out, and lost.

I've thought about this, I think it's more game culture dependent than game mechanics. The entire history of chess would be different if players didn't have to make moves in a rush sometimes. Any player asking for more time in chess would be looked at like an idiot. Online chess has automatic losses for running out of time, and no-one has ever suggested getting rid of that. Often in elite chess the entire result is decided by a player making a bad move just before they were about to receive more time. I would be perfectly OK with losing on time in this situation, and perfectly happy with winning on time as the opponent. I do know some great players that disagree with me e.g. Tomoaki is happy to give more time in turn-based. I'm not, and throw people out as soon as they go over unless they specifically ask for more (like they have a lot of work and need an extra 48 hours). Part of my reasoning is that I wouldn't know where to draw the line otherwise.

Other instances of my chess experience being different that others' in board games is that, in some 2-player board games, it's considered bad form to quit (because the winner is planning a fancy combo, etc.).

I think people that enjoy over-the-table board games and use BGA for the convenience probably don't want anyone to ever lose to a timer, unless an opponent is being unreasonable.

I think people (like myself) who want to compete and choose board games because god gave us above average brains and below average bodies accept the timer as a rule of the game, just like you need a rock next to a Golden Eagle.

[bialix]

IIUC, the only answer - play in slow turtle speed to avoid expelling on the very last move when you have giant combo.

Does not matter if you played most of the game fast. The only last move will be fatal.

UPD: map 4 is especially prone for this - almost every turn you can sell one card, so your moves a little bit longer just because you have to click more times in different zones of the screen.

[padrefinancia]

How is this even a discussion? The fast game timer should be lower than it already is, when I play with friends we average a gametime at around 12-20 minutes per player. On arena my opponents average 25-45 minutes. It's not that hard, prepare your moves and play. IF anything make it a total time timer rather than a timer per move.

[demyurge]

From what I gather, time control currently works like this.
You have a time bonus per turn depending on the speed setting:
- On fast you get +1 min per turn
- On normal you get +2 min per turn
- On slow you get +3 min per turn
And no matter the setting, you also get a time bank of 2 min, and the maximum time reserve is always capped at time bonus + time bank, respectively 3 min, 4 min and 5 min. These are most likely the numbers you see displayed and which can sometimes lead to confusion as to why they seem proportionately similar between the settings. But what really matters is the time bonus per turn which is tripled between fast and slow.

Using a total time per game wouldn't work because of the nature of Ark Nova, some games are 24 turns long, some games are 40 turns long (and maybe even longer at low ELO). "Break chicken" is a thing unfortunately, and I wish the developers of the game would have come up with an elegant solution for this.

[Tisaac]

See this thread for why it's not that easy and can be dangereous as i explained in the past already : https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38793