🌿ELO System Updates

Board Game Arena Official announcements
TheDiamondRuff
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Joined: 06 August 2015, 02:57

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by TheDiamondRuff »

I am a Premium BGA member and I've had my account for 8+ years. My account lists me as having played over 21K+ games so I am easily one of the biggest users on BGA. Over the years I've seen BGA implement so many changes that were so shortsighted to complaints from myself and others. I reported someone for cheating in Thermopyles years ago. The correct action would have been to ban that player, scrub their history from the site, and fix the exploit they were using to game the system. Instead the solution was to create an arbitrary cap of 8,700 ELO for all games. I had been playing that game for years and clawing my way up to what I hoped would be #1 overall someday. Instead I was robbed of that opportunity and all of those hours upon hours I had invested were rendered meaningless as myself and others above 8,700 ELO were all lumped together so a true #1 could never be determined for the rest of time.

Some of these recent changes are outrageous and would absolutely make me ditch my Premium membership in the future. ELO is sacred to me and many other players. I routinely find new games to play and work my way above 300 ELO (or more). I take a great deal of pride each time I top that mark but I am always looking for new challenges so I typically "retire" from those games to find new ones. I love that both myself and others can see those ELO accomplishments if they look at my profile. By introducing ELO decay you are robbing myself and others of our hard earned ELO for absolutely no reason. The All-Time rankings for each game already require that you've played at least 1 game not in Friendly Mode in the last 60 days. That system works as players can't camp in the Top 20 in perpetuity - you only get 60 days past your last game to remain on the leaderboard. However, even if we aren't showing on the leaderboard we still get to keep our hard earned ELO. I am going to be livid if ELO I earned is robbed from me simply because I chose not to play that game anymore. I'm not negatively impacting anyone and I'm not listed on the Top 20 leaderboards if my last game is post 60 days ago.

Cooperative and solo games not showing ELO anymore is beyond annoying. I want to be able to see my ELO for those games - not simply my skill level designation. The reasoning behind the change is nonsensical. Who exactly is clamoring for their ELO not to show for these games?

Power leveling change does more harm than good. After every game there is a "Propose Rematch" button. The button is clearly there for a reason and yet your change is penalizing people for choosing that option. As others have pointed out you shouldn't be penalized for playing with friends as many people likely come to BGA for that very reason. Another issue pointed out by others is for games that aren't popular the amount of players available can be slim to none. You don't have a plethora of options to choose from (if any at all). The proper solution is to ban anyone that is blatantly cheating and wipe their results from BGA. Myself and others have done an admirable job over the years reporting blatant cheaters but sadly the response from BGA has been less than ideal to say the least. Players that aren't cheating (which I am guessing make up the vast majority of users on BGA) shouldn't be penalized by a "fix" to discourage the bad apples on the site that are cheating.

Team play change makes perfect sense. You shouldn't win/lose ELO from your own teammates.

Red thumb change sounds like an Arena thing and Arena doesn't interest me so I defer my opinion to those who play it often and are admirable players.
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__X__
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Joined: 09 February 2022, 18:53

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by __X__ »

Post by Scops » 14 December 2023, 09:57

So for example: if you play and win against player X, then you play a number of other games with a number of different opponents and then you encounter player X again and win, you already lose 3% of the elo you would normally gain because it's a "consecutive" win with the same opponent.
Why you picking on me?? :D
Post by franko » 15 December 2023, 01:22

I just got a 25% reduction in ELO from a win (https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=450231855) and the last time I played this opponent was 11/29/2023. I have played 185 games of Kingdom Builder in the interim
That is seriously messed up!
- Razz ( X )
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h_illes
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Joined: 14 March 2022, 20:08

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

For the moment, I am restricting myself playing Century: Spice Road in order to avoid syphoning ELO rating from the community (most notably other top players). Before you dismiss this as 'who cares' - I am 6x Arena champion and all-time leader for the last 1.5 years.

THAT is the effect of the power levelling fix. Revert it very soon please. I am counting the days.
Stroom
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Joined: 14 July 2016, 19:10

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Stroom »

I have written personal notes about most players I have played with. The only good way to determine how well someone plays and what kinds of mistakes they keep making. But elo score should definitely be displayed.
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USAGI TI
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Joined: 03 September 2023, 20:59

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by USAGI TI »

h_illes wrote: 15 December 2023, 06:35 For the moment, I am restricting myself playing Century: Spice Road in order to avoid syphoning ELO rating from the community (most notably other top players). Before you dismiss this as 'who cares' - I am 6x Arena champion and all-time leader for the last 1.5 years.

THAT is the effect of the power levelling fix. Revert it very soon please. I am counting the days.
what do you think about, in some games, a top player makes more than 1account and occupy some spots of the leader board? His new accounts start with 0 elo, and therefore take away elo from other players, so their elo can't get close to his accounts.
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h_illes
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

USAGI TI wrote: 15 December 2023, 08:22
h_illes wrote: 15 December 2023, 06:35 For the moment, I am restricting myself playing Century: Spice Road in order to avoid syphoning ELO rating from the community (most notably other top players). Before you dismiss this as 'who cares' - I am 6x Arena champion and all-time leader for the last 1.5 years.

THAT is the effect of the power levelling fix. Revert it very soon please. I am counting the days.
what do you think about, in some games, a top player makes more than 1account and occupy some spots of the leader board? His new accounts start with 0 elo, and therefore take away elo from other players, so their elo can't get close to his accounts.
That's a serious offense, and I would ban players for less. But the current power levelling fix does NOT solve this issue in any way. The only solution I see would be identifying and handling such activities on an individual basis, which I realize takes a lot of resources. If you have any ideas to solve the problem you described, please tell.

If BGA wants to address power levelling using a general method (not individually targeted), there are ways to do that which are not detrimental to honest players. There have been several fine suggestions in this thread; I personally like reducing the K factor best, but even using Glicko rating system would be better than the current 'fix'. The current 'collective punishment' mindset is very bad.
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USAGI TI
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by USAGI TI »

h_illes wrote: 15 December 2023, 09:09
USAGI TI wrote: 15 December 2023, 08:22
h_illes wrote: 15 December 2023, 06:35 For the moment, I am restricting myself playing Century: Spice Road in order to avoid syphoning ELO rating from the community (most notably other top players). Before you dismiss this as 'who cares' - I am 6x Arena champion and all-time leader for the last 1.5 years.

THAT is the effect of the power levelling fix. Revert it very soon please. I am counting the days.
what do you think about, in some games, a top player makes more than 1account and occupy some spots of the leader board? His new accounts start with 0 elo, and therefore take away elo from other players, so their elo can't get close to his accounts.
That's a serious offense, and I would ban players for less. But the current power levelling fix does NOT solve this issue in any way. The only solution I see would be identifying and handling such activities on an individual basis, which I realize takes a lot of resources. If you have any ideas to solve the problem you described, please tell.

If BGA wants to address power levelling using a general method (not individually targeted), there are ways to do that which are not detrimental to honest players. There have been several fine suggestions in this thread; I personally like reducing the K factor best, but even using Glicko rating system would be better than the current 'fix'. The current 'collective punishment' mindset is very bad.

I just take a quick look of the 30 most popular games here, there are 9 of them there are players in the top10 leader board using multi accounts (same IP address) [Azul, Carcassonne, 7 Wonders Duel, Splendor, Agricola, Forest Shuffle, Can't stop, Sea salt paper, Terry Mystica, and another 3 games where there are suspicious activity but not same IP [It's a wonderful world, 6 nimmt!, Patchwork].

Most of them don't actually 'cheat' by playing against themselves, but they just start new 0 elo accounts after their main accounts get a good rank, and resulting in multiple accounts owned by same player in the leader board. I don't like this! 😡
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h_illes
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

USAGI TI wrote: 15 December 2023, 09:19 I just take a quick look of the 30 most popular games here, there are 9 of them there are players in the top10 leader board using multi accounts (same IP address) [Azul, Carcassonne, 7 Wonders Duel, Splendor, Agricola, Forest Shuffle, Can't stop, Sea salt paper, Terry Mystica, and another 3 games where there are suspicious activity but not same IP [It's a wonderful world, 6 nimmt!, Patchwork].

Most of them don't actually 'cheat' by playing against themselves, but they just start new 0 elo accounts after their main accounts get a good rank, and resulting in multiple accounts owned by same player in the leader board. I don't like this! 😡
I don't like this either. I have two questions for you: 1. what's your idea for a solution for this problem you just described? 2. What do you think about the issues with current power levelling fix described in this thread (by me and many other players)?
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ChiefPointThief
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by ChiefPointThief »

TheDiamondRuff wrote: 15 December 2023, 05:56 I reported someone for cheating in Thermopyles years ago. The correct action would have been to ban that player, scrub their history from the site, and fix the exploit they were using to game the system. Instead the solution was to create an arbitrary cap of 8,700 ELO for all games.

The proper solution is to ban anyone that is blatantly cheating and wipe their results from BGA. Myself and others have done an admirable job over the years reporting blatant cheaters but sadly the response from BGA has been less than ideal to say the least. Players that aren't cheating (which I am guessing make up the vast majority of users on BGA) shouldn't be penalized by a "fix" to discourage the bad apples on the site that are cheating.
Weird right? Bga policy is really lenient towards cheaters. They aren’t increasing the penalty for cheaters and are just deciding to install something that hurts the entire community instead. The penalty for quitting one game (or just missing game start because of buggy system) -20 karma

The penalty for trying to address the issue of bga’s handling of cheaters in the forum = -50 karma and a 10 day restriction.

The penalty for being convicted of using multiple accounts and cheating for an entire arena season = -30 karma and no restriction.

When your account is muted and the warning appears ppl may assume that you are vulgar which is not the case. Maybe you were muted simply for telling a cheater that they are a problem. But bga doesn’t think there is a need to show a warning that an account was just found guilty of cheating multiple times? I’m seeing ppl enter the cheaters games completely oblivious.

Another thing that I noticed is that ppl who questions bga policy on cheating have their comments erased but I see accounts in a game I play make several threads openly expressing how they cheat and will continue to cheat and aren’t punished.
Stroom
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Joined: 14 July 2016, 19:10

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Stroom »

Why do you people care so much about elo anyway? Your place in the rankings is not a meaningful representation of your skill. Only those that intentionally play to gain elo will climb to the very top. Elo decaying if you don't play similarly does not take anything away from you. You can always just play more and your score rises naturally.

Just play the games and enjoy it.
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