* cheating?

[Coolroo]

*

*Moderation Edit: please do not use the Forums to call out specific tables or players by name, this is what the Moderation Reports are for. The Forums should remain a general discussion.

[Jellby]

https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=98758

[JeromeLon]

They are not necessarily cheating. One can deduce a lot of information from just looking at the verifiers, even without a computer.

And there are only 125 possible codes, if you manage to spend 30 seconds on each of them, you can find out the answer (or a very small number of possible answers) in an hour. This is only cheating if you have a computer that does the work for you, but the numbers are such that it's possible even without a computer.

Here is an example of a non-obvious way you can cross out a code:
1. assume that a given code is the answer
2. find all the answers from all the verifiers for that code
3. find all the codes that would lead the the exact same answers
4. if there is more than one, you can cross out all of them, because no amount of turns would allow the players to find it, and the rules say that this can't happen.

Note that this kind of deduction is implied in the "Advanced strategy" chapter in the rule book.

[poptasticboy]

I very rarely require more than 2 questions for a Classic/Standard/6 puzzle; most are solvable in 0-2 tests from pure deduction.

[Pluzgi]

Also considered that there might be bots playing?

[Falveryn]

Checking the top two players on the leaderboards game history, they consistently check 0-2 verifiers in 1 round, and then immediately guess the answer. I assume they're cheating but I'd like to know if there's something I'm missing

There is a HUGE difference between playing real-time and turn-based. Given enough time, many problems are doable in that range. This is a game where there should be different leaderboards for turn and real time.

[JohnnyCyclops]

Just played my first competitive game, two-player, and big shout out to my opponent, a top-10 ELO, who won with a single verifier test and then stuck around to explain it to me when I asked them how they did it. Very clear set of logical steps they took. Sure, it looked like magic to me, who usually takes 5-6-7 verifier steps even on the simple ones, but I can see what they did and will learn from it.

[poptasticboy]

Just played my first competitive game, two-player, and big shout out to my opponent, a top-10 ELO, who won with a single verifier test and then stuck around to explain it to me when I asked them how they did it. Very clear set of logical steps they took. Sure, it looked like magic to me, who usually takes 5-6-7 verifier steps even on the simple ones, but I can see what they did and will learn from it.

That's great! Glad I'm not the only one happy to do this

[TheRealEronaay]

This will have to come down to player integrity. There is an easy way to cheat, you can find the solutions on https://turingmachine.info/ . I think every combination of verifiers on classic easy have only one punch card that will give a correct answer. When you get into the standard and hard variants then the same combination of verifiers might have more than 1 punch card that a given verifier could use to give a correct answer (i.e. could us blue slashes or green diamonds, etc. for two different codes).

I'm of the opinion that the arena rules set at Classic, Easy, and 4 verifiers, makes the answers very predictable for those who play a lot.

[poptasticboy]

This will have to come down to player integrity. There is an easy way to cheat, you can find the solutions on https://turingmachine.info/.

In most cases turingmachine.info can only tell you *possible* solutions to a given set of criteria cards. Yes, if it is a "0-test" puzzle (i.e. when there is only one possible solution to a given set of verifiers) then this would give you the only solution, but even then the user could never be sure that there isn't another solution that they just failed to generate.

Also, in such a case, it is perfectly possible to deduce the answer via deduction alone; there's no reason to assume that turingmachine.info was used.

I tend to see it as a tool to check my working occasionally, not a method to cheat; I only ever submit an answer if I can fully deduce it using logic alone.

I think every combination of verifiers on classic easy have only one punch card that will give a correct answer.

This is true for Easy/6 Verifiers but I don't think it's necessarily true for other verifier counts. However it is true that the variety of puzzles at Easy setting is much lower. At Easy/6 for example there really are only variants of 1 basic puzzle; once you spot the pattern you can solve all of them at a glance.

When you get into the standard and hard variants then the same combination of verifiers might have more than 1 punch card that a given verifier could use to give a correct answer (i.e. could us blue slashes or green diamonds, etc. for two different codes).

I think you are misunderstanding something here.

The blue slashes/green diamonds etc. appear on *verifier cards* (not "criteria cards" or "punch cards") and they are irrelevant, as they have no bearing on the solution. They are merely a feature of the physical game that allows you to refer to the same verifier card by different names, so that it's less easy for a physical player to "learn" verifier card numbers. The BGA implementation doesn't even use verifier card numbers, so this is irrelevant here.

What I think you are really talking about is whether a certain set of *criteria cards* have just a single possible solution (a "0-test" puzzle) or multiple possible solutions, requiring at least 1 test. For this, you can find examples of 0-test puzzles at all difficulties and all verifier counts.

I find that the number of Verifiers is useful here. With 6 Verifiers there are more restrictions, so it seems more likely to result in 0-test puzzles, whereas with 4 Verifiers it might be more open and require tests. Neither are guarantees though; there are still plenty of examples of 6-verifier combinations that have multiple solutions, and 4-verifier combinations that only have 1.

I'm of the opinion that the arena rules set at Classic, Easy, and 4 verifiers, makes the answers very predictable for those who play a lot.

Even more so at Easy/6 Verifiers. Its completely unacceptable that Arena Mode allows players to select their own settings. There needs to be a fixed mode for each season that all players use, and *not Easy*!