🌿ELO System Updates

Board Game Arena Official announcements
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Romain672
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Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Romain672 »

There was interresting discussion here: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33945 (already read by admins)

The elo 2p vs 3p+ is pretty interresting. It look like you would want something like that:
- a commun elo to discover the game which is actually the 0~100 we got
- potentially more commun elo because most player will not see the difference between 2 and 3+ players. That could be 100~300.
- then when someone reach 300 elo for the first time in a game, that could separate in two ways: 2p and 3+p. The extra elo would be put as a start in one of the two category, and the other one will be set at 300. Note that both elo could decrease back to 100 elo

In very popular games which can't be played at 2 players (hello 7 wonders), you could do it for 3p and 4+p.


But now, if you look at '6 nimmt!', the highest elo player only played 2p in their last 10games of the game, which is nice to separate.
But you got an option 'Logic' which changes dramatiquely the game. Having similar elo for logic game and for non logic ones will lead to similar problem.
That's why bga created arena. Kinda like "i don't care about the problems of elo, let's create a way to have many people playing competively with the same settings". And that look like to have worked well.

So maybe complexify the elo system will be a never ending problem.
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Meeplelowda
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Joined: 14 March 2020, 10:31

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Meeplelowda »

lordalx wrote: 13 December 2023, 10:41 → Red Thumbs for competitive play
One last thing that is going to be changed in a few weeks will be the impact of the Red Thumbs.
You can currently give a Red Thumb to any player with which you had a bad game experience. This prevents you from competing against them in ranked games or the Arena, but not in Tournaments.
This system can, and unfortunately is, used to prevent some players from competing against the best players. Considering that the Red Thumb system is being abused this way, on purpose or not, we will update the way Red Thumbs are impacting the matchmaking for the next season.
It's a new season. Did I miss the announcement of what changed?

[I tried searching this thread for "arena," but it is a stop word that is not allowed for a query.]
Play Now lobby 4ever! https://boardgamearena.com/lobby
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6element
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Joined: 26 July 2018, 10:15

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by 6element »

Romain672 wrote: 08 January 2024, 19:01
That's why bga created arena. Kinda like "i don't care about the problems of elo, let's create a way to have many people playing competively with the same settings". And that look like to have worked well.
Sadly, there are many major design flaws with arena and none of them have been addressed for years. But discussion of arena flaws isn't the topic.

The topic is changes to Elo system introduced about a month ago. Some of them have been reverted, but others haven't been yet, which is very unfortunate.

Some folks (including myself) are mostly interested in reverting Elo stealing "for multiple victories" (and getting stolen Elo returned). Others expressed desire to get back visible Elo in cooperative games.

Introducing a questionable change to live game is acceptable, but not correcting it after a few days is not. Ignoring feedback from community is not Ok. There is something seriously unprofessional with how BGA is handling this self-created situation.
The Nuzzer
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Joined: 14 March 2023, 01:13

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by The Nuzzer »

The ELO changes should not apply in Arena mode. I often play in a game which has a small number of players. I am approaching 100% ELO penalties when I have no choice in who I get to play. Luckily I've already reached #1 ELO as there'd be no chance with this change in place.
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ahrnge
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Joined: 14 July 2022, 18:08

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by ahrnge »

As other people have mentioned, "Elo Decay," especially at the proposed rate, undermines the purpose of Elo as a rough measure of skill. This rate of decay is much higher than any reasonable rate of decay in true skill level, so it will result in systematically underrating players who haven't played a game recently. It seems like this update attempts to make Elo something it isn't really meant to be. This strikes me as unneeded when there is an entirely separate competitive ranking system (arena mode) for competitive players anyway.

Perhaps many folks don't play a game because they don't want to lose Elo, but aren't those the exact people who will be furious when you just take their Elo away automatically? Who is this update actually for?
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Ownards
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Joined: 03 January 2021, 22:43

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Ownards »

Hi

I think the new ELO system on consecutive wins is not a good idea.

I have NEVER seen this in any kind of system in any competitive games and I think that is for a good reason. If the intent is to tackle ELO boosting, that is just a very bad solution that is doing more harm than good.

Basically it damages small communities of players who deny matchmaking when they reach a player they have played and won against several times. If there are 3 people online and I won 3 times each in a row, what should I do now ? lmao. Players are just forced to log out if they don't want to have a deflated ELO. It also discourages rematches which are often the source of many friendships on BGA. On a bigger scale, it deflates the overall ELO and gives the (wrong) impression that you are not progressing.

I have spoken to so many players who are frustrated about this. There are better ways to tackle ELO boosting like IP ban, etc. We don't need to pull out so extreme changes just for this.
KenFin1
Posts: 270
Joined: 01 September 2022, 16:11

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by KenFin1 »

Ownards wrote: 11 January 2024, 13:13 Hi

I think the new ELO system on consecutive wins is not a good idea.

I have NEVER seen this in any kind of system in any competitive games and I think that is for a good reason. If the intent is to tackle ELO boosting, that is just a very bad solution that is doing more harm than good.

Basically it damages small communities of players who deny matchmaking when they reach a player they have played and won against several times. If there are 3 people online and I won 3 times each in a row, what should I do now ? lmao. Players are just forced to log out if they don't want to have a deflated ELO. It also discourages rematches which are often the source of many friendships on BGA. On a bigger scale, it deflates the overall ELO and gives the (wrong) impression that you are not progressing.

I have spoken to so many players who are frustrated about this. There are better ways to tackle ELO boosting like IP ban, etc. We don't need to pull out so extreme changes just for this.
I agree with most of that, but would an IP ban achieve anything other than penalising players in the same household? Cheaters will use VPN or proxies etc and honest players would suffer, so no, don't start IP banning. Plus a lot of people still have dynamic IPs so you could end up banned through no fault of your own if you draw an IP previously used by a bad player

All the other changes seems bad too. ELO decay no thank you, to what purpose? ELO reduction on wins is also pointless as you show. Red thumbs are still needed imo. I can't understand why any of these changes were made tbh. I nearly quit the site over it until they relented on ELO decay. I'm waiting to see if they revert on the others too before I make my decision.
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h_illes
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by h_illes »

Just because comments are becoming slightly more scarce does NOT mean everything is fine. The power leveling penalty is still in effect, and it is doing constant damage. Your failure to address that so far is utterly disappointing.

You need to understand that once a site starts taking people's money (as in premium membership), it comes with certain responsibilities, even if you try to declare stuff like 'premium membership only gives you access to premium games'. It doesn't work like that. Paying ahead for premium membership assumes a certain level of trust from the players in that the site will not be crippled to a point where the service is no longer enjoyable. Now some of the recent changes start getting to that point. Don't abuse this trust any further, just do the necessary fixes.
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GeoPaladin
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Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by GeoPaladin »

lordalx wrote: 02 January 2024, 11:39 I would like to thank you all for your feedback on this subject.

I continue to regularly read your messages.
It goes without saying that any regression that occurs may need to be examined and dealt with.

But in reference to the primary remarks:
  • Power leveling: we continue to monitor the status and it seems unfair not to be able to win ELO and only suffer the loss, even for players that keep on losing against the very same opponent.
  • ELO Decay: based on all of your comments, it appears clear that this was a bad idea and that the leaderboard and arena currently in place allow for the prevention of the mentioned behavior. Consequently, we have chosen not to apply any ELO decay as originally planned.
  • Red Thumbs: an attractive suggestion surfaced regarding the potential trade-off of having decaying red thumbs.
When can we expect an updated response, particularly in regards to removing the penalties for consecutive wins?

While I can't speak for the community as a whole, I know a significant portion of my frustration is uncertainty as to what steps BGA is taking to resolve the problem. I have to imagine I'm not the only one.

The last communication was 10 days ago.
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Ningauble
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Joined: 25 August 2020, 23:29

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Ningauble »

ahrnge wrote: 11 January 2024, 06:39 As other people have mentioned, "Elo Decay," especially at the proposed rate, undermines the purpose of Elo as a rough measure of skill. This rate of decay is much higher than any reasonable rate of decay in true skill level, so it will result in systematically underrating players who haven't played a game recently. It seems like this update attempts to make Elo something it isn't really meant to be. This strikes me as unneeded when there is an entirely separate competitive ranking system (arena mode) for competitive players anyway.

Perhaps many folks don't play a game because they don't want to lose Elo, but aren't those the exact people who will be furious when you just take their Elo away automatically? Who is this update actually for?
I mean ELO is mostly secondary to my gaming experience but I agree with most of the concerns about elo decay.
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