🌿ELO System Updates

Board Game Arena Official announcements
User avatar
Halla
Posts: 4
Joined: 23 December 2012, 22:48

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Halla »

Nuzzer71 wrote: 11 January 2024, 02:40 The ELO changes should not apply in Arena mode. I often play in a game which has a small number of players. I am approaching 100% ELO penalties when I have no choice in who I get to play. Luckily I've already reached #1 ELO as there'd be no chance with this change in place.
I entered his forum precisely to say this. But I see it's been expressed already.

I also agree with the other players that are very disappointed with this ELO penalties. Half of the joy of playing is gone when you can lose a lot of points but hardly get any new ones. The admins have to URGENTLY answer to the louder and louder cry from the core players on this site, before we start migrating to other sites.
User avatar
6element
Posts: 187
Joined: 26 July 2018, 10:15

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by 6element »

It has been a month, and nothing changed in regards of Elo stealing. People are still being expelled from the tables, reducing fun. Creating tables is taking longer and longer making BGA service less usable. Gaming community is still being destroyed (I have about ten used-to-be-good-opponents I'm not playing with until this issue is resolved, and the number is growing). Ranking of strong frequent players is still artificially lowered.

What should BGA do with Elo stealing:
* Revert the "feature"
* Revert with apologies to community
* Revert with apologies to community and refund of stolen Elo
---> you're here now
* Revert, apologies to community, refund stolen Elo plus refund money for December
* ... and fire "the designer" behind Elo stealing

PS: The key issue is that BGA is, in a way, a monopoly. They have a deal with many IP owners, so they can do whatever with their customer service, and no other board gaming site can provide a legal alternative. But. I vaguely recall a story of moving Dominion from one provider to another due to poor service. So in real life it can and it does happen.
silentProtest
Posts: 196
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by silentProtest »

lordalx wrote: 13 December 2023, 10:41
→ ELO Decay
In the past, some of the strongest players refrained from playing as they could lose ELO, attempting to prevent losing their hard obtained current rank. This lead to situations where players kept their rank without playing anymore. We clearly want to encourage you to play to keep your rank. This will also help other players to be able to compete against the best.
Doing so, a regular ELO decay is introduced to slowly drop the ELO from top ranked players that do not play anymore. The decay will be -10% at the end of the Arena Season for all Strong players and above that did not play any ranked game, but this could be adjusted later (both scope and frequency). The decay will not move player from a rank lower than Strong.

Not sure if that was already addressed: For now, only the winning player loses elo, by winning, but not the losing player - -11% for second consecutive win. -25% for third, etc. - which is weird, and will drain the elo pool as a whole (?) -- seems more a bug than a feature.

Also thanks for implementing this idea, in general! :)

But also a remark about the implementation, beyond the, assumed, bug; how about the % K-factor decimation on consecutive wins after more than just 1 win ?? :D

Coming from Dueling games, in which rematches are quite common. And 4-5 games in a row, arent that uncommon either. Maybe a -% after 3 wins would be a better balance? - And Im not sure how this whole system works as a whole, but I hoped you guys factored in, that players on the top, might likely prefer also players on their level, which might be only one or two handful of people; On the eventuality that the -% elo for win(/loss) stays after games vs other same-y player in between.

Edit, just noticed, that it is -% elo for winner in consecutive wins, DISPITE the games in between against all other players - that is a weird choice. It makes farming low elo players, in popular games, a stronger elo gaining meta; And it likely will lead to elo being a less clear indicator between luck and skill based games.
silentProtest
Posts: 196
Joined: 26 March 2022, 20:12

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by silentProtest »

GeoPaladin wrote: 07 January 2024, 05:56
3) The penalty should not apply to Arena games, which have blind matchmaking and are much harder to power game.

Again, using my example above, I was playing an Arena game and was penalized for 100% even though I had no way of selecting this player myself. It's just a natural result of being fairly high on the leaderboards in a small to medium Arena community.
Not touching your other points. Just wanted to point out, that it is really really not that hard to force same opponent in arena -- see current 7 wonders duel arena mess: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34207
User avatar
Romain672
Posts: 1348
Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Romain672 »

I will try to think the solutions to do a Power Leveling without touching much the elo.

So here is the mains sources of problems:
1) players with multiples accounts/friends play against themselves/friends, and win/lose in purpose and drains elo like that
2) games with high number of players will lead to having way more match-up than those with 2 players
3) playing 10 times against the same player and doing 5-5 should not lead to any extra loss of elo
4) players at the top of a leaderboard on non/few luck games got absurd winrate which can in non luck game easily be 95%+ (having an expected winrate of 90% against a new player and doing 9-1 against them should not lead to any extra loss of elo, i think?, or maybe a middle ground need to be found)
5) playing arena with random opponent should not lead to extra loss of elo
6) less popular games got fewer players to play with

I think all of that is a mess. Even just lowering k-factor which is the obvious solution would be 'why doing that?', why gain and lose less elo when you play a lot against someone?
Checking all those things server wise seem really bad (per example by keeping history of loss/gain of two players), you want something simple to check X times per game.
Checking this only for players >400 elo would not work since if you play 200 times against the same player, that lower player would not get the penality even if he loses in purpose.

So, if you start a list of previous opponents with duplicates, and take the last 100 ones, then look for duplicates in thoses, then do the sum of the elo gained and loss against each of those players (removing the k-factor in those), and look for too much gain (or loss), maybe something above 30 elo (3x a single victory at 50/50 odds) you could apply that formula.
This look lots of work though for every game.
And it doesn't resolve points 5) & 6).
User avatar
nik592
Posts: 1390
Joined: 16 October 2022, 13:54

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by nik592 »

silentProtest wrote: 13 January 2024, 21:20
GeoPaladin wrote: 07 January 2024, 05:56
3) The penalty should not apply to Arena games, which have blind matchmaking and are much harder to power game.

Again, using my example above, I was playing an Arena game and was penalized for 100% even though I had no way of selecting this player myself. It's just a natural result of being fairly high on the leaderboards in a small to medium Arena community.
Not touching your other points. Just wanted to point out, that it is really really not that hard to force same opponent in arena -- see current 7 wonders duel arena mess: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34207
While that may be true, the design of Arena means matchmaking is blind, and I know I get a lot of repeated opponents without doing anything to manipulate it. So for those following the rules, they have no ability to "challenge other players" and get punished for something outside their control.

I don't disagree that there should be steps taken to address cheating - but this idea seems to hurt a large amount of non-cheating players (probably significantly larger than the cheating players it stops). If there was something in the matchmaking code for Arena that de-prioritised recent opponents, that'd be something (and personally I'd love that, as I prefer the variety) but that wouldn't solve the problem in small player pools anyway.
User avatar
Ownards
Posts: 11
Joined: 03 January 2021, 22:43

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by Ownards »

I just realized that the ELO stealing NEVER STOPS until you lose against that specific opponent. That is the most ridiculous ELO system ever. It just cannot stay like that :shock:
User avatar
GeoPaladin
Posts: 64
Joined: 17 June 2023, 12:21

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by GeoPaladin »

Ownards wrote: 14 January 2024, 12:15 I just realized that the ELO stealing NEVER STOPS until you lose against that specific opponent. That is the most ridiculous ELO system ever. It just cannot stay like that :shock:
Some people have discovered that it apparently stops after 30 days since your last game with a player.

This is, of course, still utterly ridiculous but there is a limit. As you've noted, no number of games with other players between matching someone will reduce the penalty.

Hopefully the admins respond soon (and ideally remove the obnoxious and unhelpful system).
User avatar
anykidrated
Posts: 26
Joined: 02 January 2020, 21:52

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by anykidrated »

I believe only games in the past ~30 days count to your winstreak, to be precise. So you don't even have to stop playing them entirely just minimise them to keep the % under a certain level.
User avatar
teallite
Posts: 98
Joined: 12 August 2023, 23:05

Re: 🌿ELO System Updates

Post by teallite »

silentProtest wrote: 13 January 2024, 21:20 Not touching your other points. Just wanted to point out, that it is really really not that hard to force same opponent in arena -- see current 7 wonders duel arena mess: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=34207
Yes, blind matching in Arena can be easily circumvented in some games, but changes made to ELO System won't help with that. They don't affect the method, that dishonest players use to force matches with their dummy account. They don't even affect AES (Arena ELO Score). And if they did, it would have just required more dummies. Each of these dummies can be easily boosted to 100 ELO and used in Arena for 3-4 times. Rinse and repeat. Same can be done for general leaderboards. So, we'll only get more persistent cheaters with current ELO reduction for consecutive wins. And legit players at the same time will be repeatedly matched with other legit players. They'll get the same penalty, but unlike dishonest players they won't be able to do anything about it, because they follow Arena rules.

Arena format is inherently prone to cheating in its current implementation for games with limited player pools. It works for games like Azul or Ticket to Ride with thousands of Arena players. And reducing priority of recent opponents won't help. Again, it'll just require more dummies while legit players will get longer wait times. But it is important to understand: this is a problem with cheating, not a problem with ELO. So, trying to solve it with changes to ELO system is like trying to use microscope as a hammer. And, to reiterate, ELO changes don't even affect AES. So, for whom were they made? Who asked for this?
Post Reply

Return to “Official announcements [en]”