An Imbalanced Game

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JohnnyCyclops
Posts: 282
Joined: 05 July 2023, 22:06

An Imbalanced Game

Post by JohnnyCyclops »

I've posted a couple of times acknowledging that some clever players can do the deduction thing on few or no verifier steps.

My approach to the game is a) to have some fun, and b) test myself. My version of play is scan the verifiers and plug in a code and test it a few times. I'm often starting with 432 or some variant, playing the "middle of the board". Then, I'll test a second code and usually feel I've got the answer by test 4-5-6. This is all on the Classic/Easy/4 setting (except the daily challenge).

However, when up against one of the 'deduction' players I might never get to the second round of tests. My game is truncated; my fun too. I never even get to try and complete the code. This seems to be an imbalance in the game - planned or unexpected. I think it's likely unexpected by the designers who, for the physical game, have invested time/effort in calculating and producing all those red/green punchcards. I'm not sure the designers were expecting some players simply to stare at the choice of verifiers on offer and just deduce/guess the answer without testing any of those lovely punchcards.

Games where one player finishes before the others get a chance and are effectively eliminated before they get to conclude their own play seem imbalanced. I can't see this game sticking around long. My only solution, as a premium player able to create my own tables, is to limit the table to a similar skill level, so no higher than good or average. That then provides a more equal game. I don't mind losing; I just don't want to keep losing when I'm less than half-way through the gameplay and never get to actually test my code.

If the game allowed ALL players, no matter how many steps it took each of them, to at least guess the code then I could see if I got the correct answer just slower than others. I'd still have lost the game but at least I'd know I was able to make the right assumptions/guesses, and I'd have a sense of having 'completed' the game (and lost), rather than only getting part-way before being dumped out of the game.

Yes, I realise I could learn how to do the deduction method. But, having read a few explainers, it feels a lot like chess with players having to think 5-6 steps ahead and sifting through the up-to 125 possible code combinations through a process of path-elimination or digit-elimination. That's not how my mind works nor how I want to play Turing Machine. I like to think of a code, test it, revise the code, test it some more, and then make my best guess.

For these reasons I consider Turing Machine to be an imbalanced game.
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fruktansvärt
Posts: 232
Joined: 18 September 2020, 19:16

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by fruktansvärt »

I would suggest playing in solo mode. Or possibly trying to find like-minded players.

But, yes, solo mode. I've almost only played this game in solo mode. The competetive part of the game feels a bit tacked on.

To me, it's not the game that is imbalanced, it's the world.
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Romain672
Posts: 1348
Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by Romain672 »

Just play others games, and/or setup your games to a certain level and/or increase the difficulty of the game.
Don't think it's a problem personnally. That's something unique about the game.
I really think break the code (link below) is what you are searching for. But the luck part is much more present than in Turing Machine, but it's difficult to get both.

Deductions games (thanks to Cigma: https://boardgamearena.com/player?id=89311965 ):
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=pi
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=breakthecode
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=painttheroses
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=thirteenclues
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=hanabi
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=yokai
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=tobago
https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?game=mrjack
JohnnyCyclops
Posts: 282
Joined: 05 July 2023, 22:06

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by JohnnyCyclops »

I have played Turing Machine on mostly solo mode. I'm not looking for a code-breaking game, I only played it last week because it was new/promoted on the homepage. I prefer competitive interactive games but do like the puzzle aspect of TM. I might keep up with the solo mode for the daily challenge, but this site (for me) does better with interactive multiplayer games - which TM is, but possibly with not how it's been implemented or how certain players choose to play, which is entirely up to them but risks undermining how many other people are prepared to play.

As I said in my OP, completely possibly to limit the skill level/ELO range of the people I play against, so can keep it comparable and not have to play 500+ ELO people who just deduce and guess the outcome with little use to test the verifiers.
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Romain672
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Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by Romain672 »

You should look at Reflection too: https://boardgamearena.com/gamepanel?ga ... reflection .
Try to increase the difficulty (20 items/8x8/randomly generated or harder) and you will get a puzzle game where you need to think and be fast.
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buu441
Posts: 147
Joined: 12 March 2022, 06:52

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by buu441 »

So I guess every game where some players are better than others are imbalanced. Oh wait that's basically every competitive game.
JohnnyCyclops
Posts: 282
Joined: 05 July 2023, 22:06

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by JohnnyCyclops »

buu441 wrote: 15 January 2024, 12:53 So I guess every game where some players are better than others are imbalanced. Oh wait that's basically every competitive game.
Yes and no. And no, that's not the point I was attempting to make. If it didn't come across better I'm sorry.

I sense there are going to be two distinct playing styles emerge for TM. I'm not sure the "full deduction" approach is what the game designers planned (or maybe they did). And for those who like to actually run a few tests... well.

I do think allowing ALL players to complete their tests to determine firstly, all those who were right/wrong, and then secondly, who was fastest, would help. Otherwise, faced with a zero-test deduct/guesser I'll have an much inferior game experience (basically 'no fun') so why would I play? I'm speculating most players will want to test codes not deduce/guess, so they will eventually either stop playing or do like I have an limit the skill level I'll play against. This will eventually diminish the experience of the 'deduction' players. I do like this game, I'm just worried it will splutter and fail for this reason of the two material different playing styles.

E.g. a version of the game could be made with no testing at all and simply deduction. I wouldn't play it but others might.
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poptasticboy
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Joined: 07 March 2016, 11:51

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by poptasticboy »

JohnnyCyclops wrote: 15 January 2024, 14:24 E.g. a version of the game could be made with no testing at all and simply deduction. I wouldn't play it but others might.
That would be my ideal situation! From my perspective, it's a deduction game. 0-test solutions are the "purest" deduction puzzles, and in some ways I almost find it *less satisfying* when a test is actually needed to solve it. Kind of like if a Sudoku puzzle actually had multiple solutions and you're required to ask for a hint to be able to solve it!

I do understand where you're coming from, but ultimately it's a deduction game. If a verifier's answer can be deduced without needing to test it, then why should you waste a test on it? You're simply talking about a difference in skill level; better players will see ways to deduce things that other players miss, so they can get the solution more quickly. Whether it comes after 3 tests or 0 tests, it's still about making better deductions than the opponent.

I agree that players should be allowed to continue the game even once someone finds the correct solution; this I think would improve your experience with the game greatly, as it allows each player to play out the puzzle fully.

Other than that, I guess I'd advise you play real-time games. Without the time to do the full-on deduction, there'll be more emphasis on needing to test because of the time pressure. To my tastes that sounds horrible lol, but it seems like that's what you're looking for.
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fruktansvärt
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Joined: 18 September 2020, 19:16

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by fruktansvärt »

poptasticboy wrote: 15 January 2024, 15:15 Other than that, I guess I'd advise you play real-time games. Without the time to do the full-on deduction, there'll be more emphasis on needing to test because of the time pressure.
interesting. i wonder if the game designers have considered the difference between real-time and asynchronous games. i suppose it's a bit like chess—two friends with similar skill can play correspondence chess, but in a competetive setting there will be a time limit.
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Sjarmtrollet
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Joined: 02 July 2023, 00:45

Re: An Imbalanced Game

Post by Sjarmtrollet »

JohnnyCyclops wrote: 15 January 2024, 14:24 I sense there are going to be two distinct playing styles emerge for TM. I'm not sure the "full deduction" approach is what the game designers planned (or maybe they did). And for those who like to actually run a few tests... well.
You call it different playing styles, but it's just the same as chess or any other game. They are just playing at a higher level than you, seeing patterns or information that we are completely oblivious too that leads to them eliminating verifiers and codes before testing.
JohnnyCyclops wrote: 15 January 2024, 14:24 Otherwise, faced with a zero-test deduct/guesser I'll have an much inferior game experience (basically 'no fun') so why would I play?
You can limit the ELO of players joining when you start a game (requires premium).
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