🌿ELO System Updates

[ab in dc]

Just noticed the "consecutive wins" penalty today for the first time. I play almost exclusively in Arena (except when learning something new). Why should I be penalized just because the system randomly assigned me a repeat opponent rather than someone else?

[6element]

Just noticed the "consecutive wins" penalty today for the first time. I play almost exclusively in Arena (except when learning something new). Why should I be penalized just because the system randomly assigned me a repeat opponent rather than someone else?

Ok, is penalizing for not expelling opponents before the game really any better?

[ab in dc]

Not sure where you're going with that? sorry, late to the conversation so apologies if I missed something in the previous 449 posts.

[6element]

Not sure where you're going with that? sorry, late to the conversation so apologies if I missed something in the previous 449 posts.

Players of Arena games are penalized for playing frequently. Players of non-Arena games are also penalized for playing frequently, but they have an option to expel opponents they defeated consecutively multiple times.

This isn't really any better, expelling isn't fun, being expelled isn't fun either. Not expelling an opponent (and feeling stupid because there is nothing to win in terms of Elo) isn't fun.

The design of the feature isn't questionable, it is just plain broken.

[GeoPaladin]

I would like to thank you all for your feedback on this subject.

I continue to regularly read your messages.
It goes without saying that any regression that occurs may need to be examined and dealt with.

But in reference to the primary remarks:

• Power leveling: we continue to monitor the status and it seems unfair not to be able to win ELO and only suffer the loss, even for players that keep on losing against the very same opponent.
• ELO Decay: based on all of your comments, it appears clear that this was a bad idea and that the leaderboard and arena currently in place allow for the prevention of the mentioned behavior. Consequently, we have chosen not to apply any ELO decay as originally planned.
• Red Thumbs: an attractive suggestion surfaced regarding the potential trade-off of having decaying red thumbs.

It has been 22 days since your last communication. Can you at least tell us if the devs are actually intending to take meaningful action here to revert the power levelling change that has received so much backlash - or if we're simply wasting our time & effort.

Please at least have enough respect for your players and customers to do that much.

Thank you for your time.

[Wonderful Plays]

I noticed lately that the consecutive penalty most likely applies also to arena points. I was not able to 100% confirm this, but if this true, it is just sad. Please revert the changes. BGA needs some kind of true skill implementation tested, not random ELO changes nobody asked for.

[Silene]

Instead of reducing K-Factor after a streak rather than giving a penalty - which has been suggested many times as a fix - it might be even more elegant and simpler to implement to reduce the K-factor already when playing someone many times (regardlessof streaks). So there would be no need to track results. As a consequence, games with friends and other frequent opponents would have only little influence on each other's ELO, which I think is a good thing.

[GeoPaladin]

Instead of reducing K-Factor after a streak rather than giving a penalty - which has been suggested many times as a fix - it might be even more elegant and simpler to implement to reduce the K-factor already when playing someone many times (regardlessof streaks). So there would be no need to track results. As a consequence, games with friends and other frequent opponents would have only little influence on each other's ELO, which I think is a good thing.

Reducing the K-factor is still a poor solution in my opinion, at least if made without any other changes.

This would still punish me in Arena for things completely outside my control. I'm playing Arena because I'm competitive and enjoy the sense of progression. Reducing the K-factor would still result in me being denied elo I'd previously earned.

While it would at least be less unfair than the current implementation, where we have everything to lose and nothing to gain, it's still problematic for those of us who like having a meaningful way to measure our progress in comparison with others.

Additionally, the current penalties kick in far too early, becoming prohibitive after about 3 consecutive wins in a month (30 days!) and removing all elo if you win against the same player 6 times in a row in that time period.

Additionally, it's unreasonable that the penalties are not removed after playing enough games with other players, despite that strongly indicating that one is not power-gaming.

It was just a bad change and for what my opinion is worth, I see no reason to try to salvage a poorly thought out and unfair system. Why aim for 'less bad' instead of removing the problem?

[Silene]

This would still punish me in Arena for things completely outside my control. I'm playing Arena because I'm competitive and enjoy the sense of progression. Reducing the K-factor would still result in me being denied elo I'd previously earned.

That's just one side from which to look at it. In addition it prevents you from suffering elo losses you might've suffered when you lose. It's not like you're only winning. It's no punishment when it's fair in both directions.

Also this isn't about the arena rating but the normal elo. For the arena-rating, which resets every season, it should of course only consider played opponents during the active season.

It was just a bad change and for what my opinion is worth, I see no reason to try to salvage a poorly thought out and unfair system. Why aim for 'less bad' instead of removing the problem?

Just trying to find ways to honor their initial objective of preventing cheating through power-levelling vs. puppet-opponents - just without the implemented side-effects of draining honest players and avoidance of making new friends.

[GeoPaladin]

That's just one side from which to look at it. In addition it prevents you from suffering elo losses you might've suffered when you lose. It's not like you're only winning. It's no punishment when it's fair in both directions.

Also this isn't about the arena rating but the normal elo. For the arena-rating, which resets every season, it should of course only consider played opponents during the active season.

I addressed this already. I am talking about elo, not arena points - I bring up Arena because it randomly matches you with players, many of whom are repeats. You don't have a way of controlling this. Arena matches are played for elo as well as for Arena points.

Reducing the amount of elo I would lose when losing against a repeat player might make the system less unfair, but I'm absolutely still being penalized and I can't collect the correct amount of elo for a win. I find enjoyment in having a measurable progression, so a system that unfairly interferes with that is extremely problematic.

It's absolutely a punishment, even if the penalty is applied evenly. It's ridiculous for both parties. I would prefer to gain a fair amount of elo for a win and lose a fair amount of elo for a loss. Unless I'm playing with a friend, I would rather not bother to play a match where I cannot gain or lose progression.

Just trying to find ways to honor their initial objective of preventing cheating through power-levelling vs. puppet-opponents without the implemented side-effects of draining honest players and avoidance of making new friends.

I respect the goal. Unfortunately this only resolves one out of many problems. At a bare minimum the system also needs to take into account both how long it's been since you last played an opponent (Reducing/removing the penalty over time) and more importantly, how many games you've played with other people since then (Reducing/removing the penalty based on how many games against other players you've completed).

This issue came to my attention when I got 0 elo against someone for my 6th consecutive win. I checked and found out that my 5th consecutive win was 4 days ago and that I had played 20 games with different people since then. I happened to match with this player blindly in Arena and eventually beat them again.

I'm frankly unsure that the system is worth salvaging, but at the very least it seems clear to me that such a case should never even come close to being penalized.