Question about reputation penalty for being skipped

[ollie_ollie_ollie]

Hello.
I'm relatively new to BGA and loving it so far. Having originally been nervous of playing strangers online, I've found almost everyone I've played with to be fantastic, so thank you to all of them.

I did have one experience which wasn't so positive though and wanted to check my understanding of the rules around what happened. I was playing a game of real time backgammon on a very fast setting, so it was only 11 seconds added per turn. I've played a lot of Backgammon in the real world and a fair few games on here so I'm comfortable at that speed. On this occasion though my daughter was asking me lots of questions while I was playing so I was a bit distracted and went into the red. As soon as that happened the other player skipped and the game ended. I thought that was a bit off given I was clearly still playing and only a couple of seconds over, but I totally understand why that mechanism exists, and I think it's implemented very well. The thing that concerned me though is that I got a notification saying I'd quit on a game and would receive a 10 point reputation reduction, but it would be waived because it was my first one. Does that mean if the same happens again I would lose 10 points even for just a couple of seconds over? That seems a little harsh, particularly because people seem to go into the red quite regularly, but are given a fair chance to catch up by the other players.

[SiRan90]

Pretty much. Most people will be fine with a short overrun but there will always be the possibility that someone will skip you (particularly if they are losing and their Elo matters to them so much).

Saying that, if it does happen you will make up a 10 point rep loss pretty quickly and most people won't stop you from joining a game unless it's below 70.

[Meeplelowda]

Does that mean if the same happens again I would lose 10 points even for just a couple of seconds over? That seems a little harsh, particularly because people seem to go into the red quite regularly, but are given a fair chance to catch up by the other players.

If someone goes in the red, expelling them is not automatic. Their opponent has to choose to do it. I wouldn't do it immediately if I can see that you've been playing regularly, but some people jump at the opportunity to do it.

Also, the first time they try this there is a 20-second countdown before they can actually complete it. So that means in order to be kicked someone has to go to zero time, not move for however much time it takes for their opponent to decide to expel them, and then not move for an additional 20 seconds. There is a feature that going into the red several times on the same turn will reduce the 20-second countdown, but the first time your timer hits zero it works as described.

[bopeepsheep]

the first time they try this there is a 20-second countdown before they can actually complete it. So that means in order to be kicked someone has to go to zero time, not move for however much time it takes for their opponent to decide to expel them, and then not move for an additional 20 seconds.

The trouble with this is players who know that's how it works and exploit it to drag their turn down to 0:00 or -0:05 each go, because they know they cannot be kicked. Just had a game of Catan abandoned by a player who appears to do this quite often. You can't report for anything when they do this, only red thumb them.

[Meeplelowda]

The trouble with this is players who know that's how it works and exploit it to drag their turn down to 0:00 or -0:05 each go, because they know they cannot be kicked.

The release note from 1 Sept. 2022 that I alluded to says:

delay to expel player now decreases from 20s to 0s, if this is still the turn of the overtime player

So yes, they get the full 20 seconds on the next turn. However, going down to 0:00 is not "exploiting." When someone takes a while to act, a message appears saying "This player is not playing: what can I do?" If you click on it, it say:

Is a player not playing? You can:
First, remember that each player has the absolute right to think for the entire allotment of their thinking time.
Try to contact this person via the chatroom.
You may be disconnected from the server and the other player(s) may be waiting on you: refresh the page (hit F5) to check.
If a player is definitely not there, you just have to wait until this player's thinking time is over.
As soon as your opponent is out of time, you can skip their turn.
DO NOT quit the game by yourself: you would get a penalty for leaving and the other player would not.

That first sentence ends the discussion. Their allotted time is whatever the time setting is for that game, plus 20 seconds if they complete their turn because that timing is built into the framework. You are free to red thumb people who take the whole time when it does not seem necessary, like when they only have one legal move or something, but that's all you can do, other than join the chorus of people asking for even faster settings than the fastest current setting. Taking your entire time is no more an exploit than kicking someone who is out of time (even when you're losing).

[Devu213]

I'm jumping on this forum message because it seems most appropriate to my situation.

I'm fairly new to BGA and have just started out playing a game called Terraforming Mars. It's a turn based - sort of long running game. On my 6th game - which was a board I setup, there was a new player, playing for the first time - who was playing slow. Understandable! While waiting for the player to think, in the middle of the game - I had to run to get the door and it took longer than anticipated. I thought I'd make it back in time given that the player was generally taking their time but when I got back I saw that I was over time by - (minus) 1.24s and had been ejected from the game. I was leading comfortably and would probably have won. I also noticed that one more person (With the highest ELO) had also been timed out.

I tried pressing the button called 'get back in game' but it never let me and the timer seemed frozen at where it had stopped. My questions are the following:

• Does the system time you out or does a player necessarily have to kick you out by consciously choosing to eject you.

• Is there no way to get back in? I thought that after skipping a few turns, I'd be allowed to get back in. But nothing changed and after looking at others continuing a few generations, I eventually exited.

• I noticed after the game ended that I was the loser while all others were declared winners - even the other player who left. I read on the forums that if you leave after someone has left, you don't get a penalty.

• What happens to the ELO in this case? I don't seem to have lost or gained but what happens to others?

Eventually my takeaway is that perhaps I should have left a chat message saying I'd be back soon.

[tbhp]

I certainly think it's unacceptable that the game report says the out of time player "quit" the game when in fact, it is the opposite that happened, their opponent decided to quit the game.

The phrasing could have some semblance of justification if the out of time player simply stopped playing for an absurdly long time, in which case you may say in a sense they have "quit" too.

In your case, the other player clearly decided to end the game and it shouldn't be made to look like it was you who did.

I agree that the application of penalties is inconsistent, in my opinion they should be given automatically whenever someone goes out of time. Meanwhile, the choice to keep playing and finish the game would stay in the other player's hand. But it should be independent from the penalty, because that part is not really a choice and more like a general rule that should be applied in all cases.

[tbhp]

If someone goes in the red, expelling them is not automatic. Their opponent has to choose to do it.

Indeed, and it's extremely important that the other player is not forced to end the game and that it remains their choice to keep playing. But that doesn't mean the penalty shouldn't be given automatically. When you think about it, it seems a bit weird that it's users who get to decide on such a sanction.

I mean, getting a penalty for clock violation is something that affects your reputation and gets marked on your profile, so why should that be dependent on what the opponent decides rather than the same rule for everyone? What someone decides has nothing to do with the fact that the person went out of time and that this information would be useful to know for other players.

As a result, there is no difference between someone like OP and someone who did the same thing but still has a perfect reputation because their opponent didn't make the same choice. Both users did the same thing, yet their profiles paint them differently, which doesn't make much sense.

[Meeplelowda]

a game called Terraforming Mars.

TFM is a Kennerspiel des Jahres Nominated Top 10 BGG rated game. We've heard of it.

It's a turn based - sort of long running game.

A note on terminology: what some other sites call "asynchronous," BGA calls turn-based. So you weren't playing what BGA calls turn-based. You were playing what BGA calls real-time. This makes a vast difference for how much time you have to make a move.

Does the system time you out or does a player necessarily have to kick you out by consciously choosing to eject you.

BGA makes you get your hands dirty if you want to kick someone. You aren't automatically expelled. Someone has to choose to kick you. It can even be someone else who is out of time, which may come as a surprise.

Is there no way to get back in? I thought that after skipping a few turns, I'd be allowed to get back in. But nothing changed and after looking at others continuing a few generations, I eventually exited.

I've never tried, but it would be pointless. Once someone is expelled, the game is considered over as far as the BGA server is concerned (with the exception of "Heat"). Even if people continue to make moves, the person who got expelled will be considered the loser. Nothing will change that or how Elo is awarded.

I noticed after the game ended that I was the loser while all others were declared winners - even the other player who left. I read on the forums that if you leave after someone has left, you don't get a penalty.

Yes. The way expulsions are handled is everyone who wasn't kicked is treated as tied for the win. As I said before, the game is over, so as a consequence there is no penalty for leaving.

What happens to the ELO in this case? I don't seem to have lost or gained but what happens to others?

Everyone who stayed is tied vs each other and given a win vs. you. If your Elo is at 100 or below you cannot lose Elo, and I've confirmed that for the two TFM games you've been expelled you were under 100, so that explains it. But if you were above 100 you would have lost Elo based on a loss to each of the other players as well as additional penalty loss of Elo. The floor is still 100 though.

Eventually my takeaway is that perhaps I should have left a chat message saying I'd be back soon.

Can't hurt. There are even pre-written chat messages saying you need more time. If you use those everyone at the table will see them in their preferred language. To see those messages, open up the chat window and click on the meeple icon.

If you find that you are routinely running out of time in real-time games, use the filters to choose slower times (ask if you need instructions). If those aren't slow enough, only play what BGA calls turn-based games.

Or you can play in friendly mode which has no timer. But it also has no penalty for leaving, so I'd advise only playing with people you know. Another way to play at real-time speed but without a timer that matters for practical purposes is to set up a turn-based game but arrange for all players to be on at the same time. Of course, this also only works with people you know.

[FrankJones]

a game called Terraforming Mars.

TFM is a Kennerspiel des Jahres Nominated Top 10 BGG rated game. We've heard of it.

There's a game called Terraforming Mars ???

Why wasn't I informed?