Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

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lou b
Posts: 3
Joined: 09 July 2014, 20:51

Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by lou b »

I just played a TTA game where my opponent simply left the clock ticking forever after a decisive holly war that he lost. The game was about 90% complete... he was still online and sometimes he would do just one move than leave the game for another 5 minutes... It's the 2nd time it has happened to me. :roll: I think it's unfair that when you have to expel a player, the game doesn't count to your ELO. Knowing this, sore losers will time out when they are losing instead of honorably quitting the game. In chess or any other game a time out of your opponent is a win for you. Of course, there might be a reason for this I'm missing, so please explain to me ;)
lou b
Posts: 3
Joined: 09 July 2014, 20:51

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by lou b »

Another thing, if a player concedes, the game doesn't count for ELO? why? thank you. I just had 3 player game and I won. One player quit 3 or 4 turns from the end and the game didn't count.
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E_Slumb
Posts: 47
Joined: 30 April 2011, 13:32

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by E_Slumb »

This topic requires some discussion.
On one hand, i think a game where one of the player quits long before the game ends should not count (especially 3+ players game). Because the game isn't played the right/normal way.. The win (or loss) only count when all players played (honorably, a vague subject yes) till the end..
On the other, a loser can just take the time-out/quit penalty instead of a game loss if this is true (the penalty lasts only 60 days). They don't have to worry about their (glorious) ELO rating going down, or a loss engraved on their profile..

i dunno..
ShaneOMac
Posts: 11
Joined: 23 March 2013, 19:08

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by ShaneOMac »

I agree, a game cannot be ranked when one (or more) player(s) has/have left the game early. But the ranking isn't the problem - the problem is the people leaving.

Imo there should just be a different (real!) punishment for leavers, especially for intentional leaving to prevent a loss.
Instead of giving a "leave penalty" token (which is no penalty + disappears after some time) I'd just ban a leaver for a specific period of time from ranked games, forcing them to play unranked, if they leave frequently.
Therefore I'd make the banning period longer with every leave (for example +1 day per leave):
1st leaving: warning
2nd: 1 day ban
3rd: 2 days
...
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groupscheme
Posts: 8
Joined: 04 June 2013, 19:58

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by groupscheme »

ShaneOMac wrote:Instead of giving a "leave penalty" token (which is no penalty + disappears after some time) I'd just ban a leaver for a specific period of time from ranked games, forcing them to play unranked, if they leave frequently.
Therefore I'd make the banning period longer with every leave (for example +1 day per leave):
1st leaving: warning
2nd: 1 day ban
3rd: 2 days
...
I don't like this idea, even as addition to the status quo (and certainly not as a replacement). Players may occasionally be expelled due to connection issues at an inconvenient time, which can tack on a few quits and block ranked games for the weekend. The point is that isolated instances due to unfortunate circumstances shouldn't punish players, but a trend or clear bad behavior should lead to punishment. Compare this to all those threads where people whine about that 1 red thumb they received thinking it's the end of the world - under the current system, it's not.

Right now there are three deterrents to quitting:
  1. The quit penalty, which really is a penalty if stacked enough. It prevents players from joining certain tables, and the table maker can kick out players whose reputation appears to be a problem.
  2. Other players have a good reason to give the quitter a red thumb, which is similar to the above, except it can't be removed with time or padded against by repeatedly playing with a trusted clique.
  3. The quitter loses more ELO than they would by finishing the game - even if they "quit while they were ahead" (were first upon quitting and would end up in last upon completion).
However, the second two points are faulty in turn-based! I've come across the ELO issue myself (see here; I haven't come across any more instances since, but I haven't dealt with any turn-based quit since, and the bug has not been marked "fixed"). Other players have mentioned not being able to red thumb a player in a cancelled turn-based game on account of "not having played with that player recently", which is a mistake.

So it seems like it could very well be enough to fix the above issues. Another possible addition is
  • If it's clear that a player repeatedly quits when in a losing position, that should be a valid reason to report the player. Then moderators can restrict that player's site access as they see it, as with all other cases of reporting.
This makes sense, but right now it's stated that quitting a game is not sufficient to report the player. I think this is probably to avoid receiving an overwhelming amount of bogus reports saying "the player quit". Perhaps its better to qualify if/when it's okay to report quitters and let the other players decide when those cases are met?
Liallan
Posts: 1221
Joined: 26 May 2014, 07:01

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by Liallan »

I have several comments, but also want to state that most of what I play is turn-based so that's the point of view I'm coming from.

I understand why there's no ELO when someone quits the game. For some games it really doesn't matter, but for some it does. I just continued a Can't Stop where someone quit and that certainly didn't make any difference. But I also had a Stone Age where someone quit, not only turning it from a 4-player to a 3-player with no adjustment to rules, but the system still somewhat considered the one guy to be there but just skipped his turn, so the person following him got to be first player twice in a row, really messing with the game. It was certainly not a normal game after that, so why should there be any ELO? (Too bad - I won anyway.)

Maybe in a 2-player game... but quitting is not conceding. To concede means you believe your opponent has won. (And that option exists if they care to do it the proper way.) Just leaving does not necessarily mean they've conceded. I'm not sure what would be a fair way to decide how far along the game has to be before it still counts, and who gets to decide if someone really won. Who gets to decide if they left because they were losing? That might be obvious sometimes, but it's not always, and something else could have happened. And if someone quits early in the game, I see no reason I should get an ELO boost when I never won. (Using it as a penalty is one thing, but using it as a reward for who got left behind?)

I also do not like the idea of banning someone, for the same reason -- stuff happens. I would rather see someone banned due to their percent of times they've left. Having to leave a game occasionally could be for any reason and shouldn't hurt people. But if you're leaving 20% of your games, that's a different issue.

From what I've seen, the ELO penalty has only been 10 points. I don't know if someone at 1500 doesn't get as penalized and it's mostly noobs who are quitting? I've never seen anything bigger than that, and 10 points is not even worth worrying about. If someone continually does that because they're losing, yes that would affect them over time. But I just don't see that as any great penalty. (I could see the point of applying ELO as though that player had come in last.)

There is also the unfortunate situation that the vast majority of (at least in the case of turn-based) games, the admin does not close it to those with higher percentages of quits or red thumbs. So as long as the admins don't do that, there will be games that person can join, so why should they care? I've already learned not to join those unless I'm the last player and I know who has already accepted. That actually cuts down a fair number of games, but why bother when people so often just don't show up? I'm really just not sure these "penalties" have that much meaning to those players.

But I agree something needs done.

As to the ELO... I've noticed some games get cancelled when someone quits or gets expelled and some don't. I had made the assumption when they're cancelled it's cause it's a game that just won't work with someone gone. I don't know if I'm right about that. But how difficult would it be to take the games in which it would not matter if someone left, in which it would not affect the rest of the game in any way, and unless the players choose to abandon it, go ahead and do ELO? I don't know many games but best examples I can think of are Yahtzee and Can't Stop. Someone leaving those isn't going to hurt the rest of the game or affect how people play. But I bet it would matter for a lot of games, and I don't think ELO should be applied for those, other than the penalty.

(By the way, I do see the difference between an issue with ELO, and just the fact that people quitting isn't much fun, ELO or not. So there's more than one issue involved here.)
ShaneOMac
Posts: 11
Joined: 23 March 2013, 19:08

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by ShaneOMac »

Generally my point only was: There should be some sort of punishment for breaking games and runing the fun of playing here for other players. When trying to report a leaver, BGA states that there is already a penalty: A leaver penalty, ELO penalty and possibly a red thumb (which in cancelled games cannot even be granted, because the game never happened). Seriously, in my opinion this is not a penalty whatsoever, considering there is a big warning at the start of the game, making a commitment to play until the end.
But to be clear: I didn't suggest banning people from the site completely, only for ranked games. Or maybe from their favorite games (which might be hard to determine)? I don't know what - just anything they'd actually fear more than a couple of 'bad' icons.
Liallan wrote
As to the ELO... I've noticed some games get cancelled when someone quits or gets expelled and some don't. I had made the assumption when they're cancelled it's cause it's a game that just won't work with someone gone. I don't know if I'm right about that. But how difficult would it be to take the games in which it would not matter if someone left, in which it would not affect the rest of the game in any way, and unless the players choose to abandon it, go ahead and do ELO? I don't know many games but best examples I can think of are Yahtzee and Can't Stop. Someone leaving those isn't going to hurt the rest of the game or affect how people play. But I bet it would matter for a lot of games, and I don't think ELO should be applied for those, other than the penalty.
I'd agree on that, but the games which got cancelled when somebody leaves so far were Niagara and Yahtzee. ;-) I'd guess it's more of a technical issue though.
2-player games like Dragonheart and Jaipur on the other hand could also get cancelled, because you'd just play alone after your opponents left.
Liallan
Posts: 1221
Joined: 26 May 2014, 07:01

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by Liallan »

ShaneOMac wrote:Generally my point only was: There should be some sort of punishment for breaking games and runing the fun of playing here for other players. When trying to report a leaver, BGA states that there is already a penalty: A leaver penalty, ELO penalty and possibly a red thumb (which in cancelled games cannot even be granted, because the game never happened). Seriously, in my opinion this is not a penalty whatsoever, considering there is a big warning at the start of the game, making a commitment to play until the end.
Oh, I totally agree something needs done and that I don't think the "punishments" used now are really punishment. It's not stopping these people from playing and I really doubt they care. If they quit early in the game, it's not because they're losing. If they quit near the end, that may or may not be the reason.
But to be clear: I didn't suggest banning people from the site completely, only for ranked games. Or maybe from their favorite games (which might be hard to determine)? I don't know what - just anything they'd actually fear more than a couple of 'bad' icons.
Yes, I realize you didn't mean banning them from the site completely. I just don't like the idea at all of using the number of games they've quit to determine such a punishment. That's the point I was making. Sometimes things do happen, perfectly legitimate things, and I can't see banning someone for a day or two, or from some specific game, because of these occasional things that might happen. Those kind of people don't really need punished - I don't see them as being the problem. The problem people are the ones that seem to have no qualms about just quitting, so there needs to be some other way to go about it. And what I said was that basing it on percents rather than numbers is a better option, although I still don't know what I think is a good way to do it. (Think about it - what if quit #3 happens 6 months after quit #2? I see no reason to punish that person. Even we say number of quits within x amount of time, that doesn't have the same meaning among different people. But a percent could work, since it's relative to how many games they accept.)

I really don't know how often people quit live games, but it seems like the vast, vast majority of turn-based I've taken have been abandoned by somebody, including the admin. Mostly it's been early in the game or they didn't show at all, and the one who quit late in the game was not losing, so losing wasn't the motivation. (Or I just haven't been able to actually play enough games yet to see if a loss-avoidance seems to apply.)

And it's certainly not just an ELO issue. It's not a lot of fun to put your time into a game just to have it end before it actually ends, whether I'm winning or not. It's also not a lot of fun to keep trying to play stuff and the game just never goes anywhere.

It's so much "not fun" it's tempting to just quit cause it's getting to be not worth it. There's always going to be problems but this seems out of hand.
lou b
Posts: 3
Joined: 09 July 2014, 20:51

Re: Expelling players: why is the game unranked (no ELO)?

Post by lou b »

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't aware that quiting hurts your ELO more than if you concede.
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