🌿ELO System Updates

[lordalx]

Dear Players,

We appreciate you taking the time to share your feedback regarding the ELO system. We value your input and are committed to ensuring a fair and balanced ranking system for all players.

We understand your concerns about the impact of consecutive losses against the same opponent and the limited visibility of past ELO changes. We have carefully reviewed your feedback and are actively working on addressing these issues.

Upcoming Changes:

1. Avoiding ELO Loss for Consecutive Losses:
First, the introduction of an ELO reduction for consecutive wins is a positive change, from our point of view and analysis in the long run– it has become more difficult to abuse the system. Your ELO is a measure of your skill on a game against the whole community, and you should not receive any benefits from repeatedly playing against the same player(s).

However, we recognize that losing consecutive games to the same opponent can be frustrating and can lead to an unfair ELO drop. To address this, we will be implementing a mechanism to prevent ELO loss for consecutive losses against the same opponent, like how consecutive wins are currently handled. This will help maintain a more balanced ELO distribution.

2. Extending ELO Calculation Visibility:
When we introduced the change in the ELO system, the ELO detail tooltip was only available for 1 week after the game ends.



We acknowledge that the limited availability of the tooltip was a temporary measure to prevent inconsistencies during the transition to the new system. We will be extending the duration for which this tooltip is available. The objective is to have it available for a full Arena season, if our server bears it!

3. Red Thumbs Change for next Arena Season:
There is no perfect solution towards the abuse of Red Thumbs at the moment. The initial solution we had considered would also negatively impact players that are not even playing in Arena.

Several possibilities are being discussed; however, we have yet to find the perfect solution. Some of the ideas we are considering for implementation in the short term include:

• considering a higher Karma threshold to join Arena,
• preventing players under no-chat moderations from joining Arena tables,
• having a new kind of player Thumb (Orange ones related to Arena),
• being banned from the current season and ranking from a game
• ...

Finally, remember to focus on having fun, challenging yourself, and enjoying the competition!

ELO isn't a prize or a badge of honor. ELO ratings serve as a tool to gauge relative skill levels and find well-matched opponents, not a measure of personal worth. Focus on enjoying the games, learning from your opponents, and refining your strategies to become a true board game master!

We're always listening to your feedback and working to make Board Game Arena the best place to play. Keep those messages coming!

See you at the tables,

The Board Game Arena Team

[ChiefPointThief]

*grabs popcorn*

[h_illes]

That took you a while, but yay, it's feedback! Thank you!

1. Avoiding ELO Loss for Consecutive Losses:
First, the introduction of an ELO drop for consecutive wins is a positive change, from our point of view and analysis in the long run– it has become more difficult to abuse the system. Your ELO is a measure of your skill on a game against the whole community, and you should not receive any benefits from repeatedly playing against the same player(s).

Players have provided lots of detailed analysis with logical arguments, theoretical scenarios and actual examples explaining how this was a negative change. You really should respond to those and/or share your analysis in detail, because I am fairly sure whatever you are calling 'analysis' will not stand up against the analysis made by players in this thread. In other words, you did a very poor job introducing the consecutive losses penalty and referring to some mysterious analysis does not change that.

1. Avoiding ELO Loss for Consecutive Losses:
However, we recognize that losing consecutive games to the same opponent can be frustrating and can lead to an unfair ELO drop. To address this, we will be implementing a mechanism to prevent ELO loss for consecutive losses against the same opponent, like how consecutive wins are currently handled. This will help maintain a more balanced ELO distribution.

This sounds very similar to a decreased K factor for consecutive games against the same opponents, which has been suggested here by many, and is actually a decent solution. Definitely better than the current version. Thank you! Please be transparent about the details and also when it is taking effect.

2. Extending ELO Calculation Visibility:
When we introduced the change in the ELO system, the ELO detail tooltip was only available for 1 week after the game ends.

We acknowledge that the limited availability of the tooltip was a temporary measure to prevent inconsistencies during the transition to the new system. We will be extending the duration for which this tooltip is available. The objective is to have it available for a full Arena season, if our server bears it!

The increased duration is welcome, but the explanation is surprising. Why does something so straightforward take up significant server resources? Maybe you should look into that.


On one hand, the changes made ELO worse as a measure of skill, as has been explained in detail in this thread (already during the first 10 or so pages) On the other hand, BGA actually promotes ELO as a badge of honor by handing out ELO-related awards and ranks, rendering your own argument invalid.

About the red thumb changes: I am not much affected, so I will leave that to others.

You also got a lot of feedback for ELO visibility for coop games; you should address those as well.


Well, I never gave up, and will not give up in the future either, but the 2+ months complete silence from BGA is just waaay too long. Hopefully, in the future, the response time will get shorter.

Kudos for finally replying and taking steps in the right direction!

[gmrsmrt]

1. Avoiding ELO Loss for Consecutive Losses:
First, the introduction of an ELO reduction for consecutive wins is a positive change, from our point of view and analysis in the long run– it has become more difficult to abuse the system. Your ELO is a measure of your skill on a game against the whole community, and you should not receive any benefits from repeatedly playing against the same player(s).

However, we recognize that losing consecutive games to the same opponent can be frustrating and can lead to an unfair ELO drop. To address this, we will be implementing a mechanism to prevent ELO loss for consecutive losses against the same opponent, like how consecutive wins are currently handled. This will help maintain a more balanced ELO distribution.

This way you badly beat strong players and inflate weak ones.
Assume I am much stronger than player B (say I win 19/20) and I am paired with him several times in good faith (it happened to me in arena where I have no control on the opponent ...).
With this mechanism I will gain almost no ELO and get a strong drop when occasionally I loose. Player B can almost only gain ELO. If this keep going eventually we will get the same ELO despite the strong unbalance. To achieve your goal lower the k factor for both player according to the number of games played (Better if this is done proportionally to the probability of having multiple games by chance so that small players pool are not penalized ). You still achieve the goal to lower the impact of multiple games with the same opponent but don't introduce a manifest bias in
ELO calculation

[h_illes]

This way you badly beat strong players and inflate weak ones.
Assume I am much stronger than player B (say I win 19/20) and I am paired with him several times in good faith (it happened to me in arena where I have no control on the opponent ...).
With this mechanism I will gain almost no ELO and get a strong drop when occasionally I loose. Player B can almost only gain ELO. If this keep going eventually we will get the same ELO despite the strong unbalance. To achieve your goal lower the k factor for both player according to the number of games played (Better if this is done proportionally to the probability of having multiple games by chance so that small players pool are not penalized ). You still achieve the goal to lower the impact of multiple games with the same opponent but don't introduce a manifest bias in
ELO calculation

Very good point. A lowered K factor means that the K factor is lowered in advance, regardless of the outcome of the last game. If the K factor depends on the outcome of the actual game, that's very different, and will indeed bring players of different skills closer in rating. So even though the ELO leak will stop, it will still make ELO a much worse indicator of skill. I hope this is not what they intend to do.

However, we recognize that losing consecutive games to the same opponent can be frustrating and can lead to an unfair ELO drop. To address this, we will be implementing a mechanism to prevent ELO loss for consecutive losses against the same opponent, like how consecutive wins are currently handled. This will help maintain a more balanced ELO distribution.

In light of the above, I suggest that this time whoever makes the decisions at BGA actually listens to people who can carry out the analysis properly. There's no shame in taking good advice.

[Silene]

Thanks for your statement and announcements of upcoming fixes! It's very much appreciated!

[...]
However, we recognize that losing consecutive games to the same opponent can be frustrating and can lead to an unfair ELO drop. To address this, we will be implementing a mechanism to prevent ELO loss for consecutive losses against the same opponent, like how consecutive wins are currently handled. This will help maintain a more balanced ELO distribution.

Thanks for fixing the leak (soon)!
As a next step please consider fixing the disincentive of rematching players - because proposing & accepting rematches is a very relevant first step to making friends on this platform. You wouldn't want people to avoid each other just because they have already played (some extreme examples are people giving red thumbs to their opponents just because they have played - most of them will stay in place forever as there's no overview of the red thumbs you have given to re-evaluate those. maybe we need additional red thumb with a timer).

I do understand that you want to reward consecutive wins less than the first win - and there's solutions for that. But handing out reduced wins while still handing out full losses in case of reversed results is imbalanced and not serving your purpose of ELO being a

...tool to gauge relative skill levels...

Solution 1:
Reduce K-Factor in games after consecutive results regardless of the outcome (win less, lose less in both directions)

Solution 2:
Reduce impact after consecutive plays with the same opponents (maybe reset after a while). --> In this scenario, it wouldn't matter at all if there were long streaks or not.

Regardless of the flaws in the elo-system, I love BGA for the opportunity of enjoying such a wide range of different games. Some people in this thread seem to forget that ELO isn't the very core of what BGA offers. So thanks for that and keep up the great work!

However I do appreciate a good ELO-system and if looking of that aspect of BGA, I think there's still work to be done

[h_illes]

Some people in this thread seem to forget that ELO isn't the very core of what BGA offers.

You present that as some sort of ultimate truth, but it's not. People look for and appreciate very different things. This thread itself is a testament to that.

Also, the argument that ELO is not important anyway is NOT an argument for otherwise bad changes to it. Those changes are still bad, and should be fixed as soon as possible.

[ChiefPointThief]

I don't understand all the thank you post. I understand people are glad to just hear anything after months of neglect but they didn't meet the customer's demands. They asked for feedback, received 70 pages of feedback, and still didn't do what the vast majority of customers asked of them.

1. Avoiding ELO Loss for Consecutive Losses: [/b]
First, the introduction of an ELO reduction for consecutive wins is a positive change, from our point of view and analysis in the long run– it has become more difficult to abuse the system.

The customer is always right! Almost all of the posters agreed that this was a bad change but a couple of decision makers said, "we don't care what all of you think and we are keeping it." Also note there was no mention of stopping multi accounts in this process which was the said purpose of introducing it. What analysis did you find? Did you stop an abundance of people from using multi accounts due to the consecutive wins penalty?

2. Extending ELO Calculation Visibility: [/b]
When we introduced the change in the ELO system, the ELO detail tooltip was only available for 1 week after the game ends.

We acknowledge that the limited availability of the tooltip was a temporary measure to prevent inconsistencies during the transition to the new system. We will be extending the duration for which this tooltip is available. The objective is to have it available for a full Arena season, if our server bears it!

This didn't have to be a part of the major announcement. It could've been addressed immediately but it is good that something was finally said on this issue.

[LesserJester]

<snip>

Sooo, about removing ELO from hardback competitive games? Anything on that? Anything at all?

I find the comments on ELO reduction being positive somewhat bewildering given the detailed tear downs on here of why it is a bad idea. Instead of undoing it you're pushing on with making another bad change in the losses side? Thereby incentivising the worse player to try and play someone repeatedly until they get a lucky win. And then you wonder why red thumb abuse happens? You couldn't make this up.

Please elaborate, with evidence, as to why this is seen as positive by BGA. No-one I've encountered has thought so. So what unique perception is it that BGA have that the rest of us cannot see? I would love to be enlightened.

[6element]

Dear Players,

We appreciate you taking the time to share your feedback regarding the ELO system. We value your input and are committed to ensuring a fair and balanced ranking system for all players.

We understand your concerns about the impact of consecutive losses against the same opponent and the limited visibility of past ELO changes. We have carefully reviewed your feedback and are actively working on addressing these issues.

Upcoming Changes:

1. Avoiding ELO Loss for Consecutive Losses:
First, the introduction of an ELO reduction for consecutive wins is a positive change, from our point of view and analysis in the long run– it has become more difficult to abuse the system. Your ELO is a measure of your skill on a game against the whole community, and you should not receive any benefits from repeatedly playing against the same player(s).

However, we recognize that losing consecutive games to the same opponent can be frustrating and can lead to an unfair ELO drop. To address this, we will be implementing a mechanism to prevent ELO loss for consecutive losses against the same opponent, like how consecutive wins are currently handled. This will help maintain a more balanced ELO distribution.

2. Extending ELO Calculation Visibility:
When we introduced the change in the ELO system, the ELO detail tooltip was only available for 1 week after the game ends.



We acknowledge that the limited availability of the tooltip was a temporary measure to prevent inconsistencies during the transition to the new system. We will be extending the duration for which this tooltip is available. The objective is to have it available for a full Arena season, if our server bears it!

3. Red Thumbs Change for next Arena Season:
There is no perfect solution towards the abuse of Red Thumbs at the moment. The initial solution we had considered would also negatively impact players that are not even playing in Arena.

Several possibilities are being discussed; however, we have yet to find the perfect solution. Some of the ideas we are considering for implementation in the short term include:

• considering a higher Karma threshold to join Arena,
• preventing players under no-chat moderations from joining Arena tables,
• having a new kind of player Thumb (Orange ones related to Arena),
• being banned from the current season and ranking from a game
• ...

Finally, remember to focus on having fun, challenging yourself, and enjoying the competition!

ELO isn't a prize or a badge of honor. ELO ratings serve as a tool to gauge relative skill levels and find well-matched opponents, not a measure of personal worth. Focus on enjoying the games, learning from your opponents, and refining your strategies to become a true board game master!

We're always listening to your feedback and working to make Board Game Arena the best place to play. Keep those messages coming!

See you at the tables,

The Board Game Arena Team

You do realize that by introducing Elo stealing you introduced a constant "tax" on Elo earned by active strong players? I.e. if a strong player plays a game or two per month they're not a subject of the "tax". Another player who plays 10 or 20 games a day is a subject of that tax, even if they're trying to play random opponents (and even purposely avoiding frequent opponents), the tax is non-zero and applied constantly.

If both players are strong, but the second is losing 30 Elo monthly you effectively built a machine to incentivize playing non-frequently.

Do you understand it?

Was it intentional?

When saying " ELO ratings serve as a tool to gauge relative skill levels ", do you consider folks who play less frequently to be inherently more skilled than frequent players, so Elo of frequent players is artificially made lower?