Found guilty for what?

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NightStorm
Posts: 5
Joined: 15 February 2014, 16:46

Found guilty for what?

Post by NightStorm »

I received a "demon" avatar after a Hearts game in which someone told others where the queen was.

Before that, same person did king-making for not stopping a moon-run, the runner gave a 3 of hearts and the other one gave 2 of hearts, to help him win.
I made a complaint and I WAS FOUND GUILTY! WTF?!

Game is here: n°10222333
Steps are simple:

1. moon-runner is protected by a player who could easily have stopped him, few rounds before the end of the entire game (that is king-making)
2. I get angry and say words like "noobs" and "idiots"
3. Then, someone passes me the queen, Q, at the start of the round, when those 3 cards must be chosen, and writes on the chat: alert! NightStorm has the Q!!!
4. I do a complaint about this issue and I GET 30 DAYS DEMON AVATAR!
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Jest Phulin
Posts: 1856
Joined: 08 July 2013, 21:50

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by Jest Phulin »

NightStorm wrote: 2. I get angry and say words like "noobs" and "idiots"
Regardless of what errors others made, this looks like you are admitting that you had insulting behavior in the chat. The penalty for this is demon status, where you are not allowed to talk.
totes_not_pej
Posts: 20
Joined: 03 April 2014, 22:05

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by totes_not_pej »

Nightstorm, you might want to read here about other ways to achieve Devilkin or even Demon.
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Tejo
Posts: 107
Joined: 12 May 2013, 14:15

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by Tejo »

totes_not_pej wrote:Nightstorm, you might want to read here about other ways to achieve Devilkin or even Demon.
First of all thanks for the link, I never saw this policy before!
And I hope that this topic could became a place in which we can discuss politely about it.

But after reading it, and with the information that Nightstorm gave us, I think that there is still something wrong.
About the hearts game, we can only look now the game (and not the chat) so if Nightstorm insulted his opponents it is a wrong behaviour, and it deserved to take a punishment... but it is unfair only him has a punishment, and an heavy one.
There is a really strange move into the game (maybe not with kingmaking intentions, it could have been only a mistake, but a big and unusual mistake), and after that someone said who owns the queen of spades... it's hard to stay calm after this. Saying who owns the queen during a hearts game is cheating and ruining the game for all the players (not only for the one who went angry).

In addiction to this I didn't know before reading the policy you linked the penalties for the players who made something wrong, but IMHO there should be more fairness in the application of the penalties.

Just some days ago I saw a player who wished more than once to another and his family, on his board, to die in an horrible way... and he received a 3-days devilkin (honestly I'm not offended if someone said me I'm a noob but I can understand it could be an insult for someone else .... wishing to develop a mortal desease to someone and his family deserved more a big penalty in my opinion).

Or there's another player who continued to provoke and harass me for months with ... I lost the exactly number but at least 8 accounts, he created a lot of multipleaccounts to give me red thumbs (I know that red thumbs aren't so important, but I still found funny and crazy at the same time I have more than 2k green thumbs, and between the 15 reds i received there are at least 4 of them by a player who continues to create accounts to penalize me and other players), he uses the accounts to lower his opponents on the ELO rankings, he tried to use a known bug different times to beat me and lower my ELO, but I didn't succeed so he started play that game with his account using in every single game the known bug to get the automatic win until he reached the 2nd position in the ranking (obviously I am the third), looking at his board and to the boards of his multipleaccounts I'm not the only one targeted by him and his nasty behaviour.... he was judged guilty and he received once the 3 days devilkin and some red thumbs penalties.


So I repeat: I don't know exactly what happened in the chat, but to me is unfair that for a "noob" said in a moment of anger he received on the site a penalty a lot heavier of the penalties received by users who provoke and cheat uninterruptedly.
Or looking only to the table of Hearts we are talking about the one who ruined the game willingly altering its development by giving an information that must be secret received no penalties while a moment of anger, leading to a wrong behaviour, received almost the maximum penalty on the site.
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Jest Phulin
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Joined: 08 July 2013, 21:50

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by Jest Phulin »

Please realize that we have no information about what other penalties are being assessed to the other players, or if the decision as to what punishment (if any) is still being made. Some of the comments made seem to indicate that this situation is unfair: where one person who was provoked was penalized whereas the provokers were not. We do not know that. We know the provoked did inappropriate behavior (by their own admission) and was penalized; we do not know if the provokers were penalized or not. We also know that the provoked is someone who complains publicly, instead of addressing it with the appeals procedure... :roll:
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Tejo
Posts: 107
Joined: 12 May 2013, 14:15

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by Tejo »

Jest Phulin wrote:Please realize that we have no information about what other penalties are being assessed to the other players, or if the decision as to what punishment (if any) is still being made. Some of the comments made seem to indicate that this situation is unfair: where one person who was provoked was penalized whereas the provokers were not. We do not know that. We know the provoked did inappropriate behavior (by their own admission) and was penalized; we do not know if the provokers were penalized or not. We also know that the provoked is someone who complains publicly, instead of addressing it with the appeals procedure... :roll:
Sure, so I repeated a couple of times in my post: we cannot see the chat during the game,we have to "trust" the version Nightstorm gave us about the chat.
About the public complains instead of using the appeals procedure I never receivede penalties and If I did I tried to contact a mod or an admin instead of writing on the forum, but I have to be honest: it's about an year and a half I'm on the site, and I never found the penalties policy before reading this thread. And also about the multiple accounts policy, as for what I know there is no direct link on the site, or it isn't easy to find it.
Maybe could be a good idea to insert a link to the policies into the FAQ or create directly a page with the policies easily seen on the site
totes_not_pej
Posts: 20
Joined: 03 April 2014, 22:05

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by totes_not_pej »

Well, since this thread was derailed, I might as well give additional info. The Moderation Policy I linked to is not normally visible from anywhere on BGA or on BGA wiki - nothing links there, except http://en.doc.boardgamearena.com/Special:AllPages. I only found out about the page thanks to a friend who received a reputation penalty, and they had to ask admins to actually find the reason why did that happen. I myself have been once devilkin'd for a day and never told specifically why. That's how admins roll on this site (not that I complain or care). I suspect that the Moderation Policy page is meant to be only for Seraphs' purposes, and intentionally not put in a visible place.

As for why Nighstorm was devilkined so fast: I remember Een writing somewhere about a year or two ago that admins prioritize dealing with foul language because it's easily verified from logs in few seconds, whereas determining if someone cheats takes more time and care. That policy resulted to some cheaters getting away with it for some time. However, this was back when there were 0 Seraphs and not 5. The bug Tejo mentioned is confirmed and standard policy should apparently be to reset ELO. Why that hasn't happened yet is a mystery to me.
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sourisdudesert
Administrateur
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Joined: 23 January 2010, 22:02

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by sourisdudesert »

Hi

To makes things clear:

1. NightStorn clearly deserves its penalty. I just review the chat log and it's full of insults (and not just "idiots", which is an insult anyway).
2. He should even have been received a stronger penalty because this is the 5th time he was moderated by BGA moderators. We've been more than tolerant here, and the next time his account will be closed for sure.
3. The moderation policy is for moderator usage, but it's public and there is a link to it in every moderation email to explain the decisions.
4. The moderation is done by the community, not the admin. Sometimes it goes fast, sometimes it goes slow. Usually it goes fast and for the insults it goes very fast.
5. If you don't complain, we can't punish (read moderation policy). So if there is a complain about cheating (kingmaking) or provoker, there should be a report. If there is no report, there is no reason for us to punish anyone.

Thanks
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Tejo
Posts: 107
Joined: 12 May 2013, 14:15

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by Tejo »

sourisdudesert wrote:Hi

To makes things clear:

1. NightStorn clearly deserves its penalty. I just review the chat log and it's full of insults (and not just "idiots", which is an insult anyway).
2. He should even have been received a stronger penalty because this is the 5th time he was moderated by BGA moderators. We've been more than tolerant here, and the next time his account will be closed for sure.
3. The moderation policy is for moderator usage, but it's public and there is a link to it in every moderation email to explain the decisions.
4. The moderation is done by the community, not the admin. Sometimes it goes fast, sometimes it goes slow. Usually it goes fast and for the insults it goes very fast.
5. If you don't complain, we can't punish (read moderation policy). So if there is a complain about cheating (kingmaking) or provoker, there should be a report. If there is no report, there is no reason for us to punish anyone.

Thanks
About the points 1 & 2 it seemed an heavy penalty, based on the description of the events on the table... but it was a false description, so the penalty is more than right. Sorry for discussing it so long.
About the point 3 and 4 I personally didn't know this facts, so thanks a lot for your intervention in this discussion (and also for the point 5, it is clear after reading the policy but 'til today I never saw it).

Thanks again for your explanations!
Liallan
Posts: 1221
Joined: 26 May 2014, 07:01

Re: Found guilty for what?

Post by Liallan »

I just looked through this game...

I'm going to assume you're referring to when green tossed out the king of hearts (with the Ace already in his possession), midway through the round, when it should've be obvious what s/he was doing, and then blue throw out a 10, which could've been kept and stopped the run. (Or maybe it was the next time when the queen came out - don't remember.)

I'm not sure why it is people tend to assume that because someone makes a bad move, or a move that wasn't the best move, or a move they personally would not have made, that they think someone is doing something on purpose. Perhaps someone didn't catch something, is maybe just not a good player, doesn't know the rules, isn't very good at counting cards, etc. You assume this person was kingmaking? How do you know that? I know of a guy who assumes that any time he sees someone make a bad move, it must be because they're up to something (like kingmaking, win trading, etc), and I'm not sure why people assume it was anything but plain old bad playing. Not to mention it could've been a mis-click. (You play with an interface, you have to expect that can happen.)

"Newb" in that context is an insult. Everyone is new at some point. If the game didn't specify a level of player, then anyone was free to join, and you knew that when you took the game.

You made a few moves I thought weren't so hot either. Some of the moves I could see the point, but thought they were pretty risky. And there was one time I have no clue what the point even was. I'm not saying that to insult you cause I don't care, it's just a difference of play style, and it's a choice. I'm saying it to make a point: what makes you think you're the perfect player?

(I will agree no one should give away that you had the queen, or any card for that matter. I actually think you would have every right to get angry over it, and say so. But that is an entirely different topic.)
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