Deer seem too strong in 2 Player

[NavigatorLana]

Have to agree with the general sentiment of the thread.
I really, really like the game. Beautiful art, appealing theme, a lot of very nice ideas mechanically.
Still I lost enjoyment to play it at 2 players to the point that I stopped playing at that count completely.
Deer/wolf just scales too well at this count. There is no counter play, as every deer/wolf will be instantly picked anyways by anyone but the newest of players. The fact that more cards are removed at that count actually enforces it, as it affects every other strategy as well but deer are so strong individually that it's almost always worth picking them anyways.
I might not be experiences enough to see the error in this thoughts but just the mathematical facts seem rather overwhelming:
- Wolves value/price is beyond anything else in the game by a long shot if you even got 2 deers
- there are two cards scaling directly with deer, which is probably the main reason it outperforms so strongly at 2 players (most cards per player)
- Roe deer are just very good on their own, if you have at least one other card in the color their price/value also is great and you have the option to lean into their color

Sure, those cards all need color combos to get full value, but theres usually more than enough time in 2 player games to just wait till you can conveniently pick the necessary colours up.

Still totally agree with this. I've noticed this since it first was released months ago, and I still agree.

[Sjarmtrollet]

Why not adjust the deck balance according to the number of players, like in 7 wonders?

[andyjaggy]

Yeah even with the Alpine expansion, (which does help, although in some ways it makes it worse because now you have a whole slew of 1 cost hoofed cards that can overpower your fallow deer even more) deer/wolves are still just ridiculously overpowered. Whoever gets the most has a 90% chance of winning, it's really ruined the game for me. I have to question what in the world the designers were thinking when they created them. Deer alone even without the wolves are still incredibly powerful, and more then capable of each scoring 20+ points on their own. Then you add in the wolf card, A card which gives you FIVE point per already powerful deer! Already this combo is too overpowered, but no we aren't going to stop there, let's also let the wolf card give you one card per deer! That should make the game nice and unbalanced. But no the designers thought, that's not going to work at all, let's make it even worse by letting the wolf also give you the possibility of an additional turn! There that should fully and completely ruin the game!

Look I have played this game a lot, because when the deer and wolf don't come out in a given game it's really fantastic and a lot of fun, but on those games where all the deer and wolves end up in the deck it becomes a lame competition to just see who can draw the most the quickest.

[Shaq Jenkins]

I am glad I found this thread, and I wanted to echo the sentiments expressed here. I recently learned how to play Forest Shuffle, and while I enjoy the artwork and theme, the game seems overpowered in favor of the deer/wolves strategy in 2 player mode. When I first started playing, I tried a variety of strategies and was largely unsuccessful. Once I figured out the deer/wolves strategy, I used it on my last opponent and won by 70+ points, and this was a formidable player with way more wins and experience than me. The game also ended quickly because I was lucky enough to draw all the deer/wolves. Now that I have "cracked the code" per se, my desire to play this game has diminished, which is unfortunate because it has a lot of potential. It's frustrating because it feels as if you are playing with one specific strategy in mind instead of letting your strategy unfold naturally, if that makes sense, and it lessens the replay value. This is different than a game like Seasons, where there are combos that tend to work (Necrotic Kriss+familiars, Horn of Plenty+Heart of Argos, etc.) but those strategies are not unbeatable. I've seen plenty of players (myself included) use popular strategies and combos and still lose, which is not the case in Forest Shuffle.

Perhaps I will only play with 3-4 people from now on...

[paupertim]

I have played this a lot with 2 players, almost strictly with 2 players.

I’ve beaten wolves many times, almost every time in fact.

You do have to be more cognizant of wolves, but foxes pose just as much threat because they can chain or be used with moles or the mushroom to draw a card on each animal play. I believe there are more foxes/hares than wolves/deers, but I may be mistaken.

The expansion which is now on BGA greatly improves the game making about every strategy viable.

Bats are weak still but are better and gnats with bats along with the Beech Marten can fill up the trees quickly.

Butterflies went from one of the worst to one of the stronger strategies with both the new plant and the old hedgehog boosting them, there is a lot more play with them.

I believe this expansion fixed a lot of small issues with the game balance as strategies are more open.

[Andrewsmile]

I have played this a lot with 2 players, almost strictly with 2 players.

I’ve beaten wolves many times, almost every time in fact.

Just before anyone falls for this anecdotal evidence this guy has played the majority of his <30 matches against the same player who has a 27% winrate, and the rest against another player who has a 0% winrate. Queue some arena or play against someone with more than 150 elo and deer quickly become the dominant strategy as echoed by everyone else in this thread