Wondering about the popularity of 'no live scoring'

[Nekojin]

If you don't remember, that's on you.'. And if they tried to take physical notes on paper to try to keep a running point total, I'd say that's not allowed.

That would be a house rule...

Honestly, as I get older, I'm forcibly reminded of how imperfect my memory is. I have decades of bad habits of not taking notes (and my memory was never perfect, just better than it is now), and it's hard to remember to take notes, even if the D&D campaign that I'm running.

Let someone take notes. If they're willing to go to that extra step, that's an acknowledgement that they know how bad their short term memory really is. Too much of our life already expects us to act and behave like we've got eidetic memory, when none of us actually do (estimated to be a mere 62 people out of the 8 billion on the planet).

[Yahyra]

This thread is a great reminder of why tournaments and other places where people play games have rules agreed to before hand. If one of you doesn't want another person taking notes at your game table, that's your opinion and if it's agreed to, that's fine.

Some competitive venues prohibit in game note taking and some allow them. When playing competitively; I'd rather have everyone's best game so I'd opt for notes allowed. I'd rather play a longer game where everyone has the tools to make the most informed decisions versus a bit less longer game that only favors those blessed with outstanding memory skills.

[Shufflepants]

Some competitive venues prohibit in game note taking and some allow them. When playing competitively; I'd rather have everyone's best game so I'd opt for notes allowed. I'd rather play a longer game where everyone has the tools to make the most informed decisions versus a bit less longer game that only favors those blessed with outstanding memory skills.

Would you allow calculators at your table or in a tournament you're hosting? It can make someone's game better to be able to quickly and accurately tally up scores and costs. What if someone wrote a computer program to automatically calculate exact percentages for various die rolls or potential card draws? Would you allow that? That could make their game better. What about an AI they wrote to play the game, can they use that?

At my in person table, we actually do allow a basic calculator app to be used, but only because we don't play with a time clock, and some basic arithmetic is something all of us CAN do in our heads, but it just takes longer; so it's entirely in the interest of saving time. But I wouldn't allow them in a tournament if I were running one.

Yeah, it's absolutely a matter of ensuring the rule is set down ahead of time whether in a casual or tournament game. But in general, I lean on the side of "if the game doesn't give it to you, you can't use it; with occasional exceptions made for practical reasons.".

[Yahyra]

Yeah, it's absolutely a matter of ensuring the rule is set down ahead of time whether in a casual or tournament game. But in general, I lean on the side of "if the game doesn't give it to you, you can't use it; with occasional exceptions made for practical reasons.".

Indeed, each game/ tournament should set their own rules. T Mars, out of the box, does not give you automatic production, triggering of events and bonuses, etc. . Playing here on BGA we have the luxury that all of that is automatically handled by the interface.

[jm3]

...Remembering what was played, which cards actually have a lot of points on them, and figuring out who is ahead is a skill, and as I see it, part of the game. In an OTB game I even see it as a skill to remember the number of tags played by others. Because even looking too intently or asking a player for the number of tags of some kind they have can clue in your opponents as to what you're about to do. It can remind them that milestones and awards exist. And I definitely play better on here when I have tags and exact scores at a glance.

Having no live score actually helps with a problem that other games have. One big criticism I've heard of Wingspan, is that it is far more obvious as to which player is winning. And this can lead the game to be unfun for everyone besides the leading player as they just wait for the game to be over. Whereas in TM, since it is much harder to mentally tally up the current points, who has the best engine, and on what generation the game will actually end; it can be far less clear who's winning. And not knowing an exact score helps with that.
...
It can lead to players targeting the wrong player with attack cards. But I completely understand why people wouldn't want it, as that's exactly how I like it in OTB games.

TBH I was really surprised Mars has live scoring. Half of the fun of original game is that you DO NOT know exactly. You have a feeling for people having good/bad scores, but some strategies strongly lean towards opponents inability to keep track of how much are you having exactly (animals, microbes, ...).

Live scoring turns the endgame into cold calcul of "how much points exactly do I need to score/take away from someone to win?" It shouldn´t be that way. Especially in arena games (even those turn-based ones) should counting points during the game be extra information and people should have made their own effort for it (ingame notes are there after all). Having dynamic calculations of how exactly each title and competition involves each other is brutal and I personally really don´t like it. And I feel it should be omitted from arena games.

In table you know Terrarating as scoring and that´s all. Guess the rest (so you do not slow the table down). Having everything served on a silver plate turns this into precise-targeted endgame animosity every time and is not much fun in general.

[Yahyra]

You may not think optimizing your game is 'fun', but plenty of top ranked players but in real life games, tournaments and here on bga are constantly calculating their score (both with live scoring and tallying their resources and hidden information cards in hand).

Some of us find that part mega fun too.

I have noticed less live scoring games these past couple of days. Most games appear to be normal 'live scoring' again.

[Andrew Davidson]

The live scoring is a big plus for the BGA implementation. It often makes the finish of the game quite exciting. For example, a recent four player had us on 61, 62, 63, 64 points near the end and it doesn't get much closer than that.

And it's much less hassle than the app which has a half-baked system of just tracking some of the score. My most regular opponent would always maintain a spreadsheet for each game to make up for this.

[ChesterDeBester]

On the webapp we tracked the data on 1000's of games and games with no live scoring were significantly slower. Sure, there are all kinds of wild theories you can fire at that, but I think Occam's Razor applies here.

The high-end players do count manually if needed, since they are extremely competitive and math'y.

For lower tier players it could be that with no live scoring they just YOLO it and see what happens when scores are revealed.

[Yahyra]

On the webapp we tracked the data on 1000's of games and games with no live scoring were significantly slower. Sure, there are all kinds of wild theories you can fire at that, but I think Occam's Razor applies here.

The high-end players do count manually if needed, since they are extremely competitive and math'y.

For lower tier players it could be that with no live scoring they just YOLO it and see what happens when scores are revealed.

When I've seen queue's / games going here on BGA, it seems the large majority are skipping 'no live scoring'. Looks like when I started this thread there were a few outliers over-representing the 'no live scoring' option perhaps.

[sirusx715]

Given the rest of the implementation, live scoring mostly feels like a time saver to me. The interface allows you see all the played cards. So, you could count it up in a few min. I'd personally rather save that time as I mostly do live play.

I do agree there are downsides. Weaker players may rely on the shown scores rather than properly reading opponents future looking positions when making choices like plant loss. Players demoralized by thier shown score potions may quit early and ruin the game for other players. This last point is more an issue with friendly mode (currently preludes).

I don't feel that skillful players are somehow losing any advantages. If anything, it's just meticulous/competively minded players losing an advantage against casual players.