Is a comm needed?

[JeffCgames]

Not to sound like a lawyer, but it depends.
With few tasks and lots of comms, I wouldd comm the 8g. However, if there are limited comms, or more important comms, then no it is not comm'd. The odds of 1 person with a singleton and another having a void is pretty rare. The better the players the less important it is to comm the 8g. If the person with the 8g has another task, give them that task and see if they lead a low green. If not, then probably void. If the person with the 9g is the player to the right of the 8g player (5g task), then give them their task first and they can lead the 9g.

In early missions with less tasks, I would comm if I could but in later missions, it becomes harder (may be limited number of comms, may need to comm a different problem). So if a comm is available, I comm, but for the most part I think no comm is a better solution and we should assume the 5g crew member is NOT void. That works with few tasks since plenty of time to force out the 9g and works in later rounds when there are more tasks and comms are used for other issues.

[Jessi Jaymes]

[copied from Tt doc txt]
but if we analyze closely of the situation, I suggest to adjust that to
"an immediately responding comm is not needed and g5 should not be led right away"

if green has not been played yet, a solo g9 comm means 3 players share 8 greens, with this in mind odds of a void green is quite low. so if we ask an immediately responding comm of g8, we are not using comm most efficiently.

I would add a few thoughts:
1. The comm of the Green 9 is the problem. Solve that problem.
2. Not all coms are “no problem” some are solutions. Or suggestions (thinking of the no 9 task or win with a 1 task)
3. Comm is limited to one per person. Several things could arise to need that comm. especially in later missions that comm could be needed to comm a later task.
4. Number of tasks are rarely so limited that we can’t spare a task - unless we are in later missions where again that comm could be needed.
5. Finally, I appreciate the logic piece. It is inprobable that the person who chose the task is at zero in that color if someone else is at 1 in that color. So logically we should assume they have a 7 or 8.
5. We all agree that no comm is necessary for a task taking number of 7-9
6.If there is a convention that a 9 comm IS the problem. There will be no problems with someone playing the task early or rocketing early
7. Yes, we could all comm the 8 if it’s an early mission and the comm isn’t “wasted”, but in experience it creates bad habits for the newer players to have to respond to every comm.

[pacman256]

There are of course a number of layers to this question. Taking the most basic situation, if there is only one task left, a single 9 is commed (known single, not fuzzy), and you know you need to win with the 8/7, your suit is not prohibitively long so you don't need to comm a side entry, then I would comm the high card. However, the lack of a comm doesn't mean that if the opening leader plays the 9, that someone should play a 5 (not forced) if there is no comm.

Built into the answer I wrote in the first paragraph are a number of exceptions. Any of these might be a reason not to comm:
1) fuzzy (though one can usually identify the problem at hand)
2) you need a side suit entry, possibly due to a suit that is too long to provide a natural entry, but the entry suit itself is short and you don't want it led until the 9 is unblocked
3) there are other tasks at hand which might require comms that are more important, unless both single 9 and 5's are commed (then your problem becomes the priority)

[Romain672]

Wreckage asked me before making that post
In short it's a problem of simplicity 'no comm = no problem' vs optimiality where you makes things more complicated to be better.

4 players:
You got about 5% chance for a specific player to have no card in a specific color before picking tasks.
And after lots of others calculations, on the pov of the person who hold g5, it's about 8% chance for the player to have no green and a sub compared to have g7 and/or g8.
Then you got the order of players. The worst order is g1>g5>g8>g9. But even on that case not playing g5 just waste a trick which in most games isn't a big deal.
Another bad order is if g5 is decided to be leaded. But if the order is g5>g8>g9>g1, I would suggest to not start green, and let g1 or g8 to be played first.

But the main point is that most of the time you got no upside to not wait.

If it's the last problematic task (which is rare, unless on the first missions)(so pretty late on the game), I expect a comm, especially if the holder of g5 could not have a comm anymore.
But else I don't expect one.


5 players:
That I don't know the probabilities: https://www.zupimages.net/up/21/11/1j5g.jpg .
It look like the probabilities double. So it should be around 1 chance out of 6.
I tend to comm at 5 players, but mostly because I haven't played much high missions, and usually you got less problems to comm.

[ACHolmes]

Wreckage asked me to weigh in on this. So...I have to agree with JeffCgames (and others) on this one. It depends. If I have the comm available, then yes, I would use the comm based on “no comm = no problem”. That being said, how many tasks I have, what comms are available, what comms have priority (ordered tasks), how many other tasks in the same suit exist, any problems for other player’s tasks based on my hand that need to be commed, and the level of the other players in the game will also determine when/what I comm. Also the mission itself will factor into my response or lack thereof to a comm. For example: On the missions where you cannot win a trick with a 9 and someone comms a single 9 in a suit, I am not going to lead that suit and assume that someone is going to rocket because they didn’t respond to the comm. I have a pre-typed rule of thumb for comms that I share with new players that have the generally agreed upon conventions that most of us play with, however, as with most everything in life, there are exceptions to the rules based on circumstances. We need to comm based on the information we have, common sense, familiarity/experience with our fellow players. And try, try again, if needed. It can be that sense of victory on completing a very hard task with limited communication and relying on the ability of the Crew to work together and interpret how/what we are thinking to get us through the mission that can make for some of the most interesting games.

[diart]

Generally: no com = no problem but there are a few factors to consider.

If you are the person who took the task for g5:

1) if you anticipate other problems with other tasks, it's certainly more important to use your com for other problems at earliest/must appropriate time.

2) if you are the commander who took g5 as a task while holding g1 and g8, better to lead g1 to flush g9 than use com unless there is a com of solo g5 (a rare instance)

3) if I am confident that my hand will not pose any problem for any other task, AND communication is not broken (where others have to "guess" whether g8 is highest or only), I would com g8 was highest to be clear of my intentions.

As commander, and fellow crew mate, as long as it's possible, I will attempt to help other tasks get accomplished prior to the g5 task to see if g9 is flushed in the process, OR hope that the person with g5 gets the lead as they can then com g5 (up/down) to indicate intent to flush g9 even if person with g5 task might be intending to rocket cause they have no green (or would have no green by the time g9 is flushed).

When considering whether to com or not you have to consider that 1 person has 1, you have 2. Which means 6 greens are split between the other two players (in a typical 4 person game), if you took the task g5 before the person with solo g9. Chances are that you thought you could do the task with g8 without need for com. If I had g7, I definitely plan to com if there are not other problems with cards in my hand. If you were left the task g5 after the person with solo g9, then you have less choice in the matter and so the others have to take that into consideration and being able to communicate clearly your intention i when possible, is ultimately helpful.

The whole idea of no com = no problem is not to discourage using communication but to be more judicious and ensuring that whatever com you give is the most useful and most informative com to indicate what card(s) you have and what cards others might not have (because you do). With preferences to communicating solutions whenever possible and alerting to problems when you have to.

[Wreckage]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I thought this topic is worth a discussion because the community is split on how it's played.

All the factors mentioned do matter ofc, and calculating who chose first and so on makes the math very complex. However, doing the simple math, if a player has a single 9, there is only a 4% chance another player is void. Of that 4%, I would say the void hand is likely with the player who has the task, hmm, not sure.

So it’s something like 97% of the time the player who needs the task IS indeed holding green. As some have mentioned, if it’s the last task, sure why not comm? But let’s assume it’s an early task and we are looking for the “best practice” on standard missions.

...it creates bad habits for the newer players...

Some have suggested that we should play different with newer players. But we don’t do that with other situations. How will players become experienced if we don’t teach best practices?

I agree with the “no comm = no problem” policy generally, but the 9 comm is a problem, and it’s been commed. The 8 comm is not a solution. Is this a 2-comm problem? Can’t we just assume they have green since it’s true 97% of the time in this situation?

If we remain iffy, and maybe, and guess each time, that’s going to be less successful. Do we have to always waste the comm because 3% of the time it’s a better convention?

[Romain672]

My maths aren't great neither since like you said there is lots of parameters, but there is many cases where a player would just have no high green. And so that make that 3% goes way higher.
And if you are void, that mean other two players have 8 greens, so high chance the holder of g5 got like 5 greens, and on that case it's more 6% initially, and not 4%.

That's why I talked about 8%. Which is close to three times more likely, but still pretty low.

[Rohcz]

So this discussion is up because it happened twice in a lobby that u and I were in. Harder to text eachother in game while playing. This happened twice early 10s round with only 4 tasks and everyone has a com available. Now if it was in the later rounds then yes a com may not be necessary as other coms may be more important. But early on not much big issues.....a com is very necessary if u are winning in same suit lower ranking card. No com means trump. Here's a tip tho......when someone coms single 9 and u attempt to hit the com button but not throw out a com players will pick up on that and not send out your card. But if u just sit there in the early rounds with all 4 coms available between 4 players and do nothing in response to the problem your card will come out even if 9 was commed.

[Marieakabob]

I thought about it again and stay with what I said about why a comm is needed.
If the first player comms the 9g and then the second player holds back the 5 because they think I have the 7 or 8 and then I rocket the trick as the third player thinking that the forth player has the 5g.. I know the probability is low but if I wasted my rocket because someone doesn't go with no comm no prob then I need a good back up plan.
Nevertheless I do understand why people would say that a comm is useless here and I agree on it depends a lot on the situation.