In every bug report I file, it feels like I have to fight against the developers instead of working with them

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Ragnarok1er
Posts: 20
Joined: 06 April 2019, 16:58

In every bug report I file, it feels like I have to fight against the developers instead of working with them

Post by Ragnarok1er »

Here's the latest example of this behaviour : https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=128113

Little bit of backstory : I read something the other day (in this report : https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=13887) about undo features being "part of [BGA] guidelines for most premium games" now, and thought about how this might be implemented on Ark Nova.

For the most part, undoing in Ark Nova is fairly straightforward. You can undo everything you do until new information is uncovered, for instance by drawing a card from the deck or refilling the river after digging. At that point, the game asks for confirmation and if you proceed, you cannot go back.

However, there is one specific case where the 1st part of an action is conditional on the latter part being legal : the 1 reputation you gain from the upgraded Animals action at power 5 can only be gained if you can play an animal after that.
Usually this doesn't create an issue : you can start the action, gain the reputation, and if you don't have the money to play an animal, if you lack some adjacency or if you simply change your mind, you have to backtrack and choose another action.

This leads us to the bug. If the reputation you gain with Animals II is the 10th or the 13th on the track, you get a card draw, and this card can be drawn from the deck, which cannot be undone. So before drawing the card, the game checks if you have money to play an animal later (since you won't be able to undo the card draw). Usually it does it well, and if you have no playable animal in hand (from lack of money, enclosure or any other reason), you get a "server error" and cannot go further.

However, there is one fringe case where the game is overly careful and prevents a legal action. If you play on commercial harbor and need 3 more money to play your animal, the game won't let you draw a card from the deck, even though you could sell it for 3 money no matter what you draw. Of course you could draw from reputation range, and then it works fine, but in theory you should be able to draw from the deck as well, so it's definitely a bug.

Now for the meta-commentary. This is a very specific scenario that I don't expect to be fixed with high priority. I had to create a custom hot-seat game to create the necessary situation, because I had an intuition that the game wouldn't handle this fringe case well. However, it is very frustrating to get answers like this from developers :
That's just a generic error code and has nothing to do with undoable actions. Also, you could instead take a card from reputation range.
This is such a definitve and arrogant answer from a sub 200 Elo player who probably doesn't know the exact rules of the game, and it feels like every bug I file gets the same kind of answer from developers (when they do actually answer). I don't mind explaining and giving more detail about a bug, and I understand that no one can be an expert in every game, but they always start so confrontational and ignorant that it doesn't feel worth it.
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howwow90
Posts: 14
Joined: 21 January 2024, 07:27

Re: In every bug report I file, it feels like I have to fight against the developers instead of working with them

Post by howwow90 »

FWIW if you do a search of Ark Nova bugs and contains "commercial harbor" you will find many variations of this bug. Most surprising to me is that the response you received didn't seem to have indicated knowing the pre-existing nature of it.
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Ragnarok1er
Posts: 20
Joined: 06 April 2019, 16:58

Re: In every bug report I file, it feels like I have to fight against the developers instead of working with them

Post by Ragnarok1er »

That's funny, I did exactly that before trying to create the situation because I didn't want to waste time for a known issue.

I searched for "commercial harbor" and got no results :

Image

... So I went ahead and started a hotseat game to create the situation where I figured there might be an issue.

But now your answer led me to discover a UI problem in the bug research. As it turns out, if you search for commercial harbor without the quotation marks, you get plenty of results (and tons of duplicates indeed) :

Image

This is especially bad because the grey text in the research box seems to encourage the use of quotation marks :

Image
(it says "ex. "this exactly"" in French)
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Tisaac
Posts: 2736
Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: In every bug report I file, it feels like I have to fight against the developers instead of working with them

Post by Tisaac »

Ragnarok1er wrote: 22 June 2024, 06:51 Here's the latest example of this behaviour : https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=128113

Little bit of backstory : I read something the other day (in this report : https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=13887) about undo features being "part of [BGA] guidelines for most premium games" now, and thought about how this might be implemented on Ark Nova.

For the most part, undoing in Ark Nova is fairly straightforward. You can undo everything you do until new information is uncovered, for instance by drawing a card from the deck or refilling the river after digging. At that point, the game asks for confirmation and if you proceed, you cannot go back.

However, there is one specific case where the 1st part of an action is conditional on the latter part being legal : the 1 reputation you gain from the upgraded Animals action at power 5 can only be gained if you can play an animal after that.
Usually this doesn't create an issue : you can start the action, gain the reputation, and if you don't have the money to play an animal, if you lack some adjacency or if you simply change your mind, you have to backtrack and choose another action.

This leads us to the bug. If the reputation you gain with Animals II is the 10th or the 13th on the track, you get a card draw, and this card can be drawn from the deck, which cannot be undone. So before drawing the card, the game checks if you have money to play an animal later (since you won't be able to undo the card draw). Usually it does it well, and if you have no playable animal in hand (from lack of money, enclosure or any other reason), you get a "server error" and cannot go further.

However, there is one fringe case where the game is overly careful and prevents a legal action. If you play on commercial harbor and need 3 more money to play your animal, the game won't let you draw a card from the deck, even though you could sell it for 3 money no matter what you draw. Of course you could draw from reputation range, and then it works fine, but in theory you should be able to draw from the deck as well, so it's definitely a bug.

Now for the meta-commentary. This is a very specific scenario that I don't expect to be fixed with high priority. I had to create a custom hot-seat game to create the necessary situation, because I had an intuition that the game wouldn't handle this fringe case well. However, it is very frustrating to get answers like this from developers :
That's just a generic error code and has nothing to do with undoable actions. Also, you could instead take a card from reputation range.
This is such a definitve and arrogant answer from a sub 200 Elo player who probably doesn't know the exact rules of the game, and it feels like every bug I file gets the same kind of answer from developers (when they do actually answer). I don't mind explaining and giving more detail about a bug, and I understand that no one can be an expert in every game, but they always start so confrontational and ignorant that it doesn't feel worth it.
Please keep in mind that we have a lot of reports that are false reports, either being misunderstanding of the rules, either being something related to bga and not ArkNova. Monitoring and answering takes a lot of time, time that could be spent developping or doing something else. To give some numbers, more than 1500 reports were closed as notabug in a 1 year span. As a consequence, we devs tried to find a way to get some help which is why greenjacket was granted the role of "report supervisor". So dont stop at jus ELO, he knows the game, both the rules and the recurrent bug. Which does not mean he is always right, but please dont take it personally.
The issue with commercial Harbor was discussed a lot already, you can check the forum about venom if you want. It goes down to trying to prevent players to reach blocked state VS trying not to prevent players to do legal action without hinting them on complex turns that would make it legal.
So on one hand, it is not easy to precompute whether a move will be a valid one or not in general because so many things can happens in ArkNova, and on the other hand letting the player draw a card in your situation might also be considered helping too much because one could realize he can play the animal by using map3 in a situation that maybe he wasnt aware of (I exagerated this one, probably no one would complain on that one, but you can get the general idea)
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howwow90
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Joined: 21 January 2024, 07:27

Re: In every bug report I file, it feels like I have to fight against the developers instead of working with them

Post by howwow90 »

I think everyone would prefer to be able to perform a legal move. The game already blocks you from initiating illegal actions all the time (eg greyed out actions buttons), so any hinting at the move’s possibility is no change to game dynamics. In previous threads you’d stated that it’s just complex to fix this bug which seems to be the stronger argument.

I sympathize with the glut of non-bugs and appreciate the need for the report supervisor role, but I must agree with OP. Suggesting an alternative legal move as a workaround for a bug is an off-putting response.
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greenjacket124
Posts: 141
Joined: 24 December 2021, 00:07

Re: In every bug report I file, it feels like I have to fight against the developers instead of working with them

Post by greenjacket124 »

You don't have to bring my ELO into it. The issue with commercial harbor is a recurring "bug" and suggestion, rather because of how the actions work in the programming, as Tisaac had talked about it before. Essentially, you can't sell a card in the middle of another game action going on.
Your specific case is strange, because there is nothing that should have brought up an error. Like I think I asked in the bug, did you try doing the action again?
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