Chop focus or no?

[nathanl22]

Simply put, if a clue touches a chop card and another card, and it's not a save, which one do you play given no other info?

Example: only 1r is on the board and you have no previous info on your hand and nothing is discarded. Then someone clues you "these two cards are 2s". In 3-5 player, so it's not a save. Which one do you play?
Situation (A) your left and your chop: 2 x x x 2.
Situation (B) your second card and your chop: x 2 x x 2.

It seems like officially on BGA there is no chop focus but people use it sometimes in Master-level games, so I am always confused what to do. I am especially inclined to play my chop in situation (A) since they should bluff out the first card or use color. But in a Master-level game in situation (B) I am still more likely to play the chop based on my experience.

Can we agree on a general rule or is it situation- and player-dependent?

[Stroom]

Depends on what conventions people use. Did the game settings specify anything?

You could also think in a way that one of the 2s was meant to be for saving for later. If the other 2 is at the end of the deck, it could mean up to -3 points so saving 2s is kind of important.

[Malo77]

If you want to know and follow the mainstream BGA convention for 3+ players :
- chop focus if Off
- play left is on
- no early saves : means do not try to save non unique cards

So if the 2 clue on chop is not a save of a unique card, this means play left as usual.

The other 2 will be usefull later, otherwise wait/clue differently and do not mark it. (Good Touch Principle avoid marking not usefull card)

The convention settings is barely used and not practical.

You can ask your question on one of the Hanabi group to have better/more detailed response if needed:
https://boardgamearena.com/group?id=14818266

[elamate]

Generaly convention is play leftmost clued 2.
Can have many situation the chop 2 is the focus, need read the situation.
forexample.:
bob discard already played r1 then get: x 2 x x 2 this clue.
if bob 2nd to is playable then 2 clue happend erlier. r1 not blocking giving 2 clue. also probalby 2 is the only way to save playable 2 on chop.
I also assume if i discard playable card, beacuse other copy on my hand already.

Convetion is convetion not a rule. Its help to understand clue and what other player can do they turn, so you can make strategy.

I think convention options is good, but the problem the players ignoring it.
If you intrested check out H-group convetion, they play chop-move focus. If you dont want to read much Pianoblook make some very good strategy video on youtube.

[shaun hoversten]

I always play chop card. If you chop save a card, you are preventing it from discard for a reason. It either needs saved (its other has been discarded) or it is playable. That is not "chop focus", that is logic. Since we are not allowed by conventions to early save random cards (though many people love to do it), logic says you prevented the discard for a reason. Simple example...let's say green is the only pile that a 3 is playable (1 and 2 are played). Yellow and red 3 have been discarded.

If I receive a number clue, saving the 3 on chop, I "know" the 3 is either red or yellow or green. If it is any other color, it is an invalid clue. Any other 3 attached to that clue should be ignored until more information is given as you can not control what is attached to a save clue.

If no 3 needs saved and you chop save a 3, I am playing that 3 (unless no 3 is playable), in which case I no longer can trust any clue that touches chop because I know they save random cards.

[Blacktango]

Here is how I play a clue that marks two new cards on my chop, and it seems to be the same for most of the master players I play with on BGA.

IF it's a color clue:
-> play left most


IF it's a number clue and IF all cards of this number are played or playable (ex: 2 clue when all 1 are set)
-> play right most (because we would have let you discard the trash before clue you if the right most was not playable)


IF it's a number clue and IF it can be a save but all cards to save are now playable (ex: 2 clue when the B2 is unique but playable)
-> play right most (because since the clue can be a save, it must be a save, and the card to save is actually playable)


IF it's a number clue and IF it can be a save for a non-playable card
-> no play, and most of the time discard the left most 2 (because if the left most 2 was B, it would be a B clue, or given one turn earlier)


Last special case: the trash push.
If the clue indicates known trashes (clue 2 when all 2 are set, or B when all B/M are set)
-> play the first card after the marked cards (here the B3)

[Ant Stewart]

Obviously if you know a player plays differently you adapt to their play.

But I'd say generally, I'd (almost) always play left most, and most players I have come across do too.


Regarding the logic "you are preventing it from discard for a reason" - I agree with that, but that reason doesn't have to be that the card is playable now.
It could be that it is a 2 I don't want to lose, or it could be that it will be playable soon, or it could be that saving it would avoid a tricky situation with a double discard that is coming up soon. As such that ability to splash the chop card with a number clue is very useful. In general, I have splashed the chop card with a number play clue, far more often than I have ever wanted to give a play clue on the chop card with a number clue.

Since we aren't allowed to early save 2s, being able to splash them at the last minute is (for me) a big advantage and increases the opportunities to save it with a number splash by 25%.


Under game conventions, there are options including "finesse" and "chop focus" - as far as I understand, "chop focus" is just finesse but when a number play clue touches chop, it means play chop focused? So I think there is the option to specify preferences in this regard via the convention field? (I am unable to find any other references as to what the "chop focus" convention is.


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Regarding:

IF it's a number clue and IF it can be a save for a non-playable card
-> no play, and eventually discard the other 2 which would have been clued with a color clue if it was not a trash

I think I would agree on no play for the first round, since a save would necessitate a lie. But if the lie was not corrected next round, I would play the card, rather than discarding. By good touch, I would expect a clue to tell me it is junk, not a clue to tell me that it is still valid.

[elamate]

Obviously if you know a player plays differently you adapt to their play.

But I'd say generally, I'd (almost) always play left most, and most players I have come across do too.


Regarding the logic "you are preventing it from discard for a reason" - I agree with that, but that reason doesn't have to be that the card is playable now.
It could be that it is a 2 I don't want to lose, or it could be that it will be playable soon, or it could be that saving it would avoid a tricky situation with a double discard that is coming up soon. As such that ability to splash the chop card with a number clue is very useful. In general, I have splashed the chop card with a number play clue, far more often than I have ever wanted to give a play clue on the chop card with a number clue.

Since we aren't allowed to early save 2s, being able to splash them at the last minute is (for me) a big advantage and increases the opportunities to save it with a number splash by 25%.


Under game conventions, there are options including "finesse" and "chop focus" - as far as I understand, "chop focus" is just finesse but when a number play clue touches chop, it means play chop focused? So I think there is the option to specify preferences in this regard via the convention field? (I am unable to find any other references as to what the "chop focus" convention is.

More master player play chop card instead of left most.
I most of the time accept if bomb happening because i save playable card on chop.

Chop focus on h-group convention means if clue touch chop then the focus is on chop, so if you clue color or number and it touch chop then you suppose play/save chop. This means the problem clueing playable card on chop become easy, just clue color(h-group also save card with color not just number).

The problem is no one read what convection option is, so even if i want chop focus other play bga convention so does not matter what option i choosing. BGA generaly player more on the casual side playing on phone or just some quick break, so i not expect that player ever read what convention we playing and adapt to it, and explain every time what is chop focus, before game is make 8-15 min game much longer and also exhausting.

I also often not read chat while playing hanabi.