Tash Kalar move timer when undoing moves.

[omegasun5]

Somehow it is possible to undo moves in Tash kalar...this also resets the move timer. I had a player do this repeatedly to gain thinking time in a game. When all was said and done, he had 94 minutes of thinking time to my 24. Is this right?

[Quinarbre]

Browsing your last games, I'm guessing you're talking about http://fr.boardgamearena.com/#!table?table=11793552, right ?

According to the log it doesn't seem your opponent overused the undo button.

Anyway, extra time is given only when you end your turn, and by then you can't undo anymore. Even the Time Elemental does not allow to bypass this.
What is reset is the red bar on top of the board, so indeed you can easily stay under the 5 minutes per move limit, but the global limit remains.

[squarerootofthree]

I could see a small potential for this to be abused, but for the record, thank you so much for the undo button in TK! Love it. Wish more games on here had the equivalent. I try not to use it too much but it's very handy when I make a mistake.

[omegasun5]

That's the one. He would let the move timer almost fill up, make a couple moves then undo and the move timer would reset, and the cycle would repeat. I'm not against the feature being included, I just wish that it couldn't be abused in this way.

[Malama]

I have thought about this to. But it is very seldom you meet someone that is that rude. For normal games with nice people this is a good feature.

[EllieK]

I have thought about this to. But it is very seldom you meet someone that is that rude. For normal games with nice people this is a good feature.

I agree Malama, an undo is a nice feature but there is no reason for it to reset the timer. Changing your mind shouldn't grant you more time.

[Quinarbre]

Let me state it again :

It does not grant you more time.

What it does is reset the "red bar timer" (which has no effect whatsoever on your global thinking time). The reason is that the blue "undo" and "redo" arrows are just buttons that modify the board the same way the other moves (clicking on cards and tokens) do. So it's counted as full-fledged move (for instance it increases the moves counter).

I even see a (debatable) reason for it to reset the red bar : using undo is basically the same as clicking on "I would like to think a little", but on top of it you show your opponent how you're thinking, so you're actively participating in the game.

[EllieK]

Let me state it again :

It does not grant you more time.

What it does is reset the "red bar timer" (which has no effect whatsoever on your global thinking time). The reason is that the blue "undo" and "redo" arrows are just buttons that modify the board the same way the other moves (clicking on cards and tokens) do. So it's counted as full-fledged move (for instance it increases the moves counter).

I even see a (debatable) reason for it to reset the red bar : using undo is basically the same as clicking on "I would like to think a little", but on top of it you show your opponent how you're thinking, so you're actively participating in the game.

Does clicking the "I would like to think a little" reset the red bar timer? Maybe I've missed that. Using up your red-bar timer is an action that allows your opponent to Expel you from the game (no need to lecture in red caps how one should give an opponent a few minutes before expelling them). Having a button that resets that red bar timer allows one to avoid entering a situation where they can be expelled for using too much time on a turn.

Allow me a few hours to test the red bar timer. I'll get back with apologies and clarifications if I'm incorrect.

EDIT -- No, clicking "I would like to think..." does not reset the timer and going over the red bar timers opens you to expulsion and hits you with a time penalty in your reputation. So I think it would be safe to say, "Clicking 'UNDO' does grant you more time." Using the logic -- "IF I AM FACING A TIME PENALTY AND CLICK UNDO I CAN AVOID THE TIME PENALTY BY HAVING THE TIMER RESET -- THEREFORE IT GRANTS MORE TIME." Perhaps not more total time for the game, I get that, but more time for the turn. You dig?

[Quinarbre]

The OP was under the impression that his oponent had gained unwarranted time, which is not what I programmed, which I re-tested and corrected here, and yet you felt the need to state the opposite, so excuse me if my formatting went a little off course.

I never said that clicking "I would like to think a little" reset the red bar timer, I meant to say it conveyed the same meaning : "I'm not slacking off nor disconnected, this move is hard, please allow me a bit more than the system's default". In every gentlemen's game I've played, no one expelled anybody after their timer was full unless they were clearly not there anymore. Hell, if the game really is interesting and competitive, I WANT my opponent to take as much time as he needs to provide the best move he can deliver. And yet, he'll get a time penalty in his reputation and there's nothing I can do about it, even if I enjoyed the game a great deal because he took the time to be a worthy opponent.

So my vision of the timer is that it's here to allow you to abort a game that's already doomed to fail, not to punish an opponent because he's a slower thinker than you. But like I said, it's debatable.

[EllieK]

Thanks for explaining, Quinarbre. I now understand the point you're making -- by design an Undone move is the same as a done move in regards to the red bar timer. In other words, you can expend all of your total game time on one turn. Does this, in practice, nullify the turn timer for T-K?

I think the OP's concern was that it could be abused by some players. Considering this is the only Undo (to my knowledge) on BGA, one must consider the OP's point of view. All other games are bound by the red bar turn timer, T-K, in practice, is not.

Thanks for T-K and thanks for explaining! And thanks for the Undo action -- I like it.