There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Tournaments organization / Organisation des tournois
stickay
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Joined: 01 July 2021, 19:48

Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by stickay »

yeah, so I just got booted out of a tournament because someone skipped whilst I was winning the game...
2 out of 4 players ran out of time, someone skipped, the remaining 3 get 1 point, I am thrown out of the tournament althoug I am being the one with time on the clock and most points on the table.
what a system...
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nik592
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Joined: 16 October 2022, 13:54

Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by nik592 »

That's what happens with multiplayer elimination. I'm not saying it's fair, but there has to be some determination of who gets eliminated when a game ends early. The person booted gets eliminated, but it's difficult to find an ultimately fair way to determine who else gets eliminated. Mid-game score isn't considered reliable. In a game where the maximum time is reached, time remaining is used, but for some reason, in a game where booting occurs there's some other mechanism (some have suggested the newest account is chosen for elimination, and that does line up here).

Tournaments have issues. The issues have been raised, and you can vote for them, but nothing seems to happen with fixing them. So you either accept the system as is (and realise that sometimes things go unfairly), or you don't play tournaments.
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Calmon70
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by Calmon70 »

nik592 wrote: 24 August 2024, 00:20 That's what happens with multiplayer elimination. I'm not saying it's fair, but there has to be some determination of who gets eliminated when a game ends early. The person booted gets eliminated, but it's difficult to find an ultimately fair way to determine who else gets eliminated. Mid-game score isn't considered reliable. In a game where the maximum time is reached, time remaining is used, but for some reason, in a game where booting occurs there's some other mechanism (some have suggested the newest account is chosen for elimination, and that does line up here).

Tournaments have issues. The issues have been raised, and you can vote for them, but nothing seems to happen with fixing them. So you either accept the system as is (and realise that sometimes things go unfairly), or you don't play tournaments.
It's never a good idea to let a player decide to use the option to get an advantage or not. Some will do, some not. Just don't give the possibility, remove the button. There is no reason other than bad reasons. The system should judge this, not a player decision.
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nik592
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by nik592 »

Calmon70 wrote: 24 August 2024, 09:05 It's never a good idea to let a player decide to use the option to get an advantage or not. Some will do, some not. Just don't give the possibility, remove the button. There is no reason other than bad reasons. The system should judge this, not a player decision.
I agree, booting should not exist in tournament games. That said, there is still where the table times out due to maximum time, and that has to be there, because tournament games will potentially never end without a max time for the table. So then, players can choose to simply run out the clock and hope that their time used is less than someone else's. You're still going to get unfair finishes. It would be better, but not perfect.

Additionally, as I said, it first relies on someone in control at BGA to remove the option to boot in tournament games, and BGA admin don't seem especially motivated to make ANY changes to the tournament framework (even something relatively simple, like allowing time/turn games, or longer lengths of games).
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Calmon70
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by Calmon70 »

nik592 wrote: 25 August 2024, 05:26 I agree, booting should not exist in tournament games. That said, there is still where the table times out due to maximum time, and that has to be there, because tournament games will potentially never end without a max time for the table. So then, players can choose to simply run out the clock and hope that their time used is less than someone else's. You're still going to get unfair finishes. It would be better, but not perfect.
Sure, you can do this. Most games you will just lose by doing because especially in multiplayer games there is a lot of time you need to sit out and you will be most likely last one. And I agree, it's just better than current solution - not 100% working for all circumstances.

I'm always for an easy doable improvement of current situation than waiting for a (complex) perfect solution which needs a lot of time to think through and might never be priorized.
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Calmon70
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by Calmon70 »

Another example how bad the current 'skip' is: https://boardgamearena.com/14/heat?table=553238969

It's 6 player heat tournament, the 1-3 place goes into next round and 4-6 are out. Guess what happens. The guy on last place decided to skip (on last turn of course) and now it will end 5 people on 1st place where 2 people go out regardless how they would have ended up.

COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. The last guy (grey car) wouldn't be able to do that when skip doesn't exist. There is dozens of days left until next tournament round start. It was the last racing turn. He did it purely on personal advantages.
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menettm
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by menettm »

I have seen cases with 4 players where only one player is qualified at each turn of the tournament.
And the skipper don’t pay attention that he will be also eliminated with the skipped and another player for age of the subscription in BGA.
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Oxmeister
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by Oxmeister »

While I agree that the situation you describe is poor and unfair, I cannot agree with the title that there are zero reasons to skip in a tournament. I've played in some tournaments where the whole round of games need to finish to allow progression, and a single repeat offender falls way behind and times out every game they are involved in, needlessly keeping people waiting. In these cases, skipping is the only remedy.

In other situations, either real time or near real-time games, a player using additional time will be able to use this advantageously (additional thinking time). We can all agree that some players are far too keen to skip, and use it to advance in a game they otherwise look like losing (poor form), but there are also circumstances where it's fair game.
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nik592
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by nik592 »

Oxmeister wrote: 06 September 2024, 16:23 While I agree that the situation you describe is poor and unfair, I cannot agree with the title that there are zero reasons to skip in a tournament. I've played in some tournaments where the whole round of games need to finish to allow progression, and a single repeat offender falls way behind and times out every game they are involved in, needlessly keeping people waiting. In these cases, skipping is the only remedy.
The games will end on their own when the maximum time set in the tournament options is reached. Yes, this may mean some games run longer than others, and rounds can be delayed waiting on that one game. But the same would be true if every player managed to carefully use their allotted play time (ie. no one goes into the red until right at the end). Having a maximum time for games means that tournaments don't get stuck indefinitely, and having players stuck for a while between rounds is better than having players booted unfairly (and potentially people eliminated almost randomly). Besides, if a game runs to maximum time, the player(s) with the least time remaining will be eliminated - so this has the same result where the person who held up the game the most won't move into the next round anyway.
Oxmeister wrote: 06 September 2024, 16:23 In other situations, either real time or near real-time games, a player using additional time will be able to use this advantageously (additional thinking time). We can all agree that some players are far too keen to skip, and use it to advance in a game they otherwise look like losing (poor form), but there are also circumstances where it's fair game.
They can only take additional thinking time if the other player(s) isn't using all of their thinking time (if all are using just the amount they have, the game will either complete just in time, or perhaps time out just before ending). While it's unlikely that everyone is going to use all of their thinking time, meaning some buffer is available, one assumes a player using less than their allocated thinking time is either a good enough player to figure out their moves in less time, or doesn't care (or know enough) about the quality of their moves - and additional thinking time may not have helped them. Furthermore, there comes a point when additional thinking time doesn't provide any additional benefit.

To be fair, your second point is the only one that MIGHT have a valid point, but I would argue that that could be worked around by allowing skipping in tournaments only for real-time play, and/or where a game has only two players. Where things typically go badly is in turn-based and/or where there are more than two players.
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blhootz
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Re: There are ZERO reasons tournament games have "Skip" other than some people abuse it for personal advantages

Post by blhootz »

Hi there. I have not researched all the various suggestions for making tournament skipping, uh... less bad. And while I don't think it would necessarily and automatically solve the ultimate question of who advances and who doesn't, one very obvious fix - to me, at least - is...

Make the person who presses the SKIP button automatically be eliminated.

At the very least, this would mean that pressing the SKIP button would clearly *not* give any advantage to the person doing the skipping.

What do y'all think?
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