The Patron card is too overpowered. Its the one that gives 5 points for every card in your grid with a cost of 5+. Its just too easy to get 25 - 30 points on that card alone. I think either it should be 5 points for cards with 6+ cost or maybe 4 point for cards 5+. As it is, once the other player gets it, the game is pretty much over. I've never lost with it and I've never won against it.
Patron is too OP
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Andrewsmile
- Posts: 92
- Joined: 14 May 2020, 23:33
Re: Patron is too OP
It's a strong card for sure, but not overpowered. Your post is likely in response to this game:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... s=86610938;
where you lost (by only 5 points by the way, certainly not insurmountable) to the highest elo opponent you've ever played in your only 20 total games. As you play more you will win against it and lose with it- it costs a lot of money and requires spending a lot of money on other expensive cards so to get much value out of it you either need a lot of discounts or you need to play cards flipped, so there is a lot of opportunity cost to playing it. Like many cards, when your build aligns around it it generates a ton of points, but sacrifices are made elsewhere.
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... s=86610938;
where you lost (by only 5 points by the way, certainly not insurmountable) to the highest elo opponent you've ever played in your only 20 total games. As you play more you will win against it and lose with it- it costs a lot of money and requires spending a lot of money on other expensive cards so to get much value out of it you either need a lot of discounts or you need to play cards flipped, so there is a lot of opportunity cost to playing it. Like many cards, when your build aligns around it it generates a ton of points, but sacrifices are made elsewhere.
Re: Patron is too OP
The point is that it is a very very easy build to align with. There are sooo many cards that are 5+, that getting 20+ points with that card is a breeze. For the sake of balance it really should be nerfed.
I appreciate the research you have put into my question, and you are correct that the game you have noted is my most recent example demonstrating my point that the card is obviously overpowered. I have played many games where I have won with it and lost to it, but none the opposite.
The reason that you won't win to it, at least to a player who is skilled in the game, is they are generally going to only buy it at the beginning of the game, when they can easily align the rest of their cards to cost 5+, or near the end of the game if they happen to already have a lot of cards that cost 5+. So basically, it is a guarantee of at least 20 points easily, and in most cases 25 - 30. Even if that costs you two flipped cards (which it really shouldn't if you play/plan correctly) that is still an average of 10 points per card if you hit 30, which is very good.
If I was playing this game physically on a frequent basis, and they don't nerf this card, I would probably remove it from the game to increase fairness and playability. You may not believe it is overpowered, in your opinion, but I'm telling you as a player that it is very frustrating to play against and decreases the gaming experience.
Thanks for your response.
I appreciate the research you have put into my question, and you are correct that the game you have noted is my most recent example demonstrating my point that the card is obviously overpowered. I have played many games where I have won with it and lost to it, but none the opposite.
The reason that you won't win to it, at least to a player who is skilled in the game, is they are generally going to only buy it at the beginning of the game, when they can easily align the rest of their cards to cost 5+, or near the end of the game if they happen to already have a lot of cards that cost 5+. So basically, it is a guarantee of at least 20 points easily, and in most cases 25 - 30. Even if that costs you two flipped cards (which it really shouldn't if you play/plan correctly) that is still an average of 10 points per card if you hit 30, which is very good.
If I was playing this game physically on a frequent basis, and they don't nerf this card, I would probably remove it from the game to increase fairness and playability. You may not believe it is overpowered, in your opinion, but I'm telling you as a player that it is very frustrating to play against and decreases the gaming experience.
Thanks for your response.
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Andrewsmile
- Posts: 92
- Joined: 14 May 2020, 23:33
Re: Patron is too OP
To refute your claim that you wont win against a "skilled player", here's a game where I win against an opponent with >300 elo who had a 25 point patron (and a great build outside of patron as well with blue/cost reduction synergy):
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=567080741
To get 25 points out of patron, you will have to spend at LEAST 27 coins over the course of the game (4 5-cost cards plus patron, obviously neglecting the numerous cards that give money/discount). This matters, because in the game I linked the strong player had plenty of cards that generated a ton of money with a solid blue setup, and still needed to flip 2 cards to pay for what he needed. I can see you've never played someone with 300+ elo, I promise they will counterdraft your early patron far more than you are probably used to.
Something else that I found when going through games for this post is that patron is actually pretty rare- I only saw it in maybe 20% or less of the games I went through- part of the reason for this is it just isnt good very often. When it's good it's great, but despite your claims that "there are soooo many cards that cost 5+" and "getting 20 with it is a breeze" there actually arent many 5+ cost cards that generate enough money for you to be able to buy 3+ of them over the course of the game, and that's assuming enough of them show up and your opponent doesn't counter. I would argue that for a card to be OP it would be more of an auto-include (like beekeeper which in my opinion takes the title for strongest card), but it just isn't- its a high cost, high reward card that is only high reward in circumstances more specific than you think.
Now in fairness, Castle Combo has a lot of luck in general so there are certainly games where near the end your opponent finds patron with a great board and lucks into 20+ points in the final turns. But again, they built around a card that happened to show up- most of the time, that wont happen. What's harder to analyze is all the games where a player needed patron to show up, it didn't, and they lost when they could have won if they played better and more consistently.
Perhaps one example among strong players isn't enough to persuade you from your anecdotal evidence that it's OP, here are a few more games where I win against a 20+ point patron just in case. Note that I didn't include a ton of games where I win against a patron that scores 15 or less because I countered all the expensive cards and they spent 7$ and gave me 2$ to get very little value. There are games that I win with patron too of course, but you said that once it comes down the "game is pretty much over" and that you "won't win to it against a skilled player" which just isn't true.
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=565356654
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=573513644
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=567080741
To get 25 points out of patron, you will have to spend at LEAST 27 coins over the course of the game (4 5-cost cards plus patron, obviously neglecting the numerous cards that give money/discount). This matters, because in the game I linked the strong player had plenty of cards that generated a ton of money with a solid blue setup, and still needed to flip 2 cards to pay for what he needed. I can see you've never played someone with 300+ elo, I promise they will counterdraft your early patron far more than you are probably used to.
Something else that I found when going through games for this post is that patron is actually pretty rare- I only saw it in maybe 20% or less of the games I went through- part of the reason for this is it just isnt good very often. When it's good it's great, but despite your claims that "there are soooo many cards that cost 5+" and "getting 20 with it is a breeze" there actually arent many 5+ cost cards that generate enough money for you to be able to buy 3+ of them over the course of the game, and that's assuming enough of them show up and your opponent doesn't counter. I would argue that for a card to be OP it would be more of an auto-include (like beekeeper which in my opinion takes the title for strongest card), but it just isn't- its a high cost, high reward card that is only high reward in circumstances more specific than you think.
Now in fairness, Castle Combo has a lot of luck in general so there are certainly games where near the end your opponent finds patron with a great board and lucks into 20+ points in the final turns. But again, they built around a card that happened to show up- most of the time, that wont happen. What's harder to analyze is all the games where a player needed patron to show up, it didn't, and they lost when they could have won if they played better and more consistently.
Perhaps one example among strong players isn't enough to persuade you from your anecdotal evidence that it's OP, here are a few more games where I win against a 20+ point patron just in case. Note that I didn't include a ton of games where I win against a patron that scores 15 or less because I countered all the expensive cards and they spent 7$ and gave me 2$ to get very little value. There are games that I win with patron too of course, but you said that once it comes down the "game is pretty much over" and that you "won't win to it against a skilled player" which just isn't true.
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=565356654
https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=573513644
Re: Patron is too OP
I agree with Andrew. Patron is one of the strongest cards in the game, sure. But likely you'll have to play a card or two flipped to get that maximum value, so might be getting 25+2+2 (flipped cards give 2keys/2points) so thAt's 29 points in 3 cards and giving your opponent 2 gold, not the best. Obviously it can be played more elegantly, but there is a big investment/commitment to making him work. Like I just got 40 points with Her Majesty (the castle 10pts/set lady), and she is far from broken. I've lost way more games because of her than done well because of the options you give up being forced to search for builder/scientist flags
Re: Patron is too OP
this is basically correct. It's a strong build-around card but it isn't better than Alchemist or Mercenary etc. There is a massive cost to getting it online, and it's very easy to interfere with it, deleting cards that cost 5 that actually help your opponent. If they want to spend 5 for bad cards then you will beat them.Andrewsmile wrote: ↑28 October 2024, 01:00 It's a strong card for sure, but not overpowered. Your post is likely in response to this game:
https://boardgamearena.com/archive/repl ... s=86610938;
where you lost (by only 5 points by the way, certainly not insurmountable) to the highest elo opponent you've ever played in your only 20 total games. As you play more you will win against it and lose with it- it costs a lot of money and requires spending a lot of money on other expensive cards so to get much value out of it you either need a lot of discounts or you need to play cards flipped, so there is a lot of opportunity cost to playing it. Like many cards, when your build aligns around it it generates a ton of points, but sacrifices are made elsewhere.
Re: Patron is too OP
Here is an example. This is a winning 110 score from my last game. I was deep in Castle cards and I had a massive -4 discount to them, so would theoretically be a dream patron board. If I took patron as my last card, he would have been worse than just about all the other options i had.
https://boardgamearena.com/12/castlecom ... =634848672#
As luck happened, he came out just after my last turn, but if I had bought him as my last card, I lose.
Let me explain:
Yes, he gives 15 points, but even with a 4 discount he cost 3 gold, which is 6 points less on my purse.
Moreover, he gives 2 gold - ie 4 points on a purse - to my nearest competitor. So in terms of victory, he is effectively only 15 - 10 = 5 points! My average score here was 12 per card. Without either silver synergies or a significant discount, his *effective* points could have been even worse.
As it happened, the Architect was a 10 point card, but an effective 14 points (no downsides and cost 0).
Patron is a great card, but he is not overpowered.
https://boardgamearena.com/12/castlecom ... =634848672#
As luck happened, he came out just after my last turn, but if I had bought him as my last card, I lose.
Let me explain:
Yes, he gives 15 points, but even with a 4 discount he cost 3 gold, which is 6 points less on my purse.
Moreover, he gives 2 gold - ie 4 points on a purse - to my nearest competitor. So in terms of victory, he is effectively only 15 - 10 = 5 points! My average score here was 12 per card. Without either silver synergies or a significant discount, his *effective* points could have been even worse.
As it happened, the Architect was a 10 point card, but an effective 14 points (no downsides and cost 0).
Patron is a great card, but he is not overpowered.
Re: Patron is too OP
Patron is the second best card in the game after beekeeper imo. The thing with those cards is that they have a disproportionate scoring potential almost by themselves, considering their high flexibility.