How does Gaia project´s auction works?

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Kayvon
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Joined: 17 October 2011, 01:39

Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by Kayvon »

Sherros wrote: 07 August 2023, 12:38My confusion is mostly why the bidding seemingly jumps between factions.
It just goes in player order. When it's a player's turn to choose, that player automatically bids on the faction with the largest difference between that player's max bid and the faction's current bid.

Let's take a quick example. Let's say the bids look like this:
* Faction A: Current bid is 4. Your max bid is 6. The difference is 2 (because 6-4 = 2)
* Faction B: Current bid is 2. Your max bid is 5. The difference is 3 (because 5-2 = 3)
* Faction C: Current bid is 0. Your max bid is 0. The difference is 0 (because 0-0 = 0)
When it's your turn to bid in this example, you're going to automatically bid on Faction B because it has the largest difference (3). It's not your max bid that determines which faction you bid on, it's the difference. You'll automatically increase the bid by one, so you'll bid 3 (because it's one higher than the current bid of 2).

If that's super helpful, I can add it to the How To Play wiki. If not, let's figure out what's confusing and talk about it.
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Martym
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by Martym »

While I (think that I) understand step by step how the auction works once bids are done, I'm still trying to figure how to bid.
I mean that, if there are 3 factions, one I absolutely want to avoid, one that I don't really care about and one I want, I have no idea whatmy best course would be. Bet a lot on the third one, bet nothing at all on Lantids (the one I want to avoid) and then ?
If I bet too low on the second faction, I may end up with Lantids because someone outbid me. But I bet too high I would switch to this faction (and possibly pay a lot) due to the difference even if I had the highest bid on my fav faction.

I'm really trying to puzzle what to expect from auction system dependings on the bids I make and so far I'm almost tempted to play without it even though I believe auctions are necessary in that game.
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Kayvon
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by Kayvon »

Like any auction, you can bid extremely high on what you want to win, which will improve your chances of getting it. Of course, if someone else does the same, they will bid you up, even if you win, or potentially bid higher than you.

Your question boils down to the same question players ask themselves in all blind bids. There's no single correct answer without knowing how others will bid. I prefer to just bid as high as I'm willing to pay.
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Martym
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by Martym »

Well, usually in an auction when you bid the highest you win so in the end it's just a matter of assessing how much you're willing to pay, here it's not the case: you can have the highest bid and still get something else because of how you (and other players) bid on other factions.
That's why I'm puzzled and ask for advice on how to bid on "medium" factions (factions I can play but not my fav).
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Kayvon
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by Kayvon »

Like any good board game, the auction system has a set of rules that apply to it and players work within those rules to achieve their goals. You're asking a good strategy question. I can run the numbers and tell you the outcome of a given situation, but I can't tell you the ideal strategy for getting everything you want. That's going to be dependent on your fellow players.

The auction rules are different, for sure, but they're not too complicated. If the difference between your high bid and the current bid is great than the difference for another faction (faction_a_highBid - faction_a_currentBid > faction_b_highBid - faction_b_currentBid), then you'll go after that smaller difference. The way to ensure you keep bidding on faction A is to use an even higher bid, of course. The way to ensure you go after B next is to use a high bid there, too. But if other players bid up on both A and B, it's possible you'll go after C instead.

The auction system is dynamic and will really depend on how other players bid. It makes for some interesting decisions. As far as I'm aware, this is the same system used by the app and the PC implementation as well, though I had no part in designing those.
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evilhippo12
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by evilhippo12 »

Is there any chance that Gaia could get a Standard Auction like we have in TM?
Having the option for a blind auction is nice still. But, I've always preferred when I could see who values what in real time.
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Kayvon
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by Kayvon »

No, there's not. Please see the suggestion thread for a full explanation.
Here is the link to that discussion:
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=52587

And here's a highlight for those who prefer not to click on the link
Happy Saturday morning. We've completed the implementation of new features that include banning, drafting, and auctions. We've also been in touch with the publisher to receive approval of these optional features.

Months of planning and volunteer hours have gone into making these a top-notch experience. Having said that, we also recognize that no single solution will please everyone. Fortunately, these optional experiences don't replace the core game experience. If you discover this particular implementation isn't for you, we would invite you to continue to enjoy the existing experience supported by the official ruleset.

Enjoy the new features! I look forward to seeing more varied factions in upcoming games!
I encourage you to read the full discussion to see some very strong opinions both ways.
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davypi
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by davypi »

I just did my first game with auctions and lost on a faction I feel like I should have won. Its taking a lot of parsing through the rules to understand why and I'm beginning to see where the contention is coming from. I bid 12 points on my first pick and 9 points on my second pick. Another player bid 9 points on my first pick but less (I think zero, but I'm not sure) on my second pick. When the bid on my first pick hits four points, my bid shifts away from my preferred faction to my second choice because the second choice has larger differential. (Nine minus zero on my second pick is larger than 12 minus four on my first pick.) The auction rules assume that I would rather bid on a race I have smaller bid on than continue to bid on a faction I have a higher bid on. What this ends up doing is creating a situation where, with my 12pt-1st/9pt-2nd bid, I'm effectively not going to bid any higher than 3 points on my 1st choice unless there is also competition on my second choice. So even though I'm willing to pay more for my preferred faction than the second player, that player is going to end up winning it. So here are the specific ways in which I feel like the linked explanation is insufficient.

1) The "power" of your highest bid is tempered by the size of your second highest bid. In my example, the bidding on my favored faction stops at 4 because the difference between my two highest bids was three. If my second bid had been, say six instead of nine, the other player would have had to bid up to seven before triggering my bids into switching to a different faction. If winning my favored faction was that important to me, the strategy here is not to increase my bid for my favored faction, but rather to decrease the bid for my second choice.

2) It does not specifically call out the fact that you can lose a faction for which you are the highest bidder. In the help file example, this is demonstrated by the fact that Player B wins AMBAS even though player C had a higher bid for that faction. But the point I'm making here is that the help file neither specifically calls this fact out nor explains why it can happen. You have to manually parse out the logic to understand that the bidding system is not only forcing you to switch which faction you bid on, but effectively blocks you switch back unless you subsequently get knocked out of the "new" faction you are bid into.

3) The net effect of the two items above means that the lowest bid you submit is equally valid for any faction you are bidding on at all. Most people are going to assume that if I bid 10 on Alpha and 7 on Beta, that I only want to bid 7 on Beta if I actually lose on Alpha. But the way the rules work, the system is assuming that any bid of seven or less is equally good for either Alpha or Beta. And that isn't to say that the auction system is wrong or invalid, only that its not intuitive to the way people conventionally think about how real-life auctions work. In the real world, I'm going to bid on purchasing something, I'm going to bid on the item I want the most, not the item I have the least contention against. The down side here is that players may not end up getting their favored choice even if they are willing to pay more than the winner while the up side is that the system generally guarantees that all participants end up paying the least amount necessary.

And the overall point here is that the problem with the help file is not that it is technically inaccurate, but rather that it fails to explain the kinds of non-intuitive outcomes it can produce, why they can happen, and what the strategic implications of a second choice bid actually are.
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Mogri
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by Mogri »

davypi wrote: 15 November 2024, 02:00 And the overall point here is that the problem with the help file is not that it is technically inaccurate, but rather that it fails to explain the kinds of non-intuitive outcomes it can produce, why they can happen, and what the strategic implications of a second choice bid actually are.
What help file do you mean? If you mean the community-editable wiki, then I encourage you, as a member of the community, to edit it for clarity.
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zbirone
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Re: How does Gaia project´s auction works?

Post by zbirone »

The current faction system does not balance the game, and even rewards cunning:

choose the weakest faction of the current setup, and then bet a few dozen VP on another: in most cases you will gain a stronger faction without losing as many points as you allegedly declare to lose.

Someone will answer: you are wrong, players simply need to be aware of how to bid.

My reply: give the possibility of a normal auction move by move, alternately, and then the overwhelming majority of players will switch to such a system.

I hope that BGA will implement a sensible auction system where players will consciously bid points, move by move, and ultimately pay the true cost of declaring, which will be deducted at the end of the game.

Also because in the future, after the implementation of The Lost Fleet - starting with a different number of VP than 10 will be contrary to the basic idea of ​​the game.
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