Weak Cards Banlist Discussion!

[lezurichois]

Thanks a lot alex and cranesflyhigh for starting this thread!

Removing a few unplayable cards is an idea that came up a few times in my conversations with other Agricola aficionados. If you could play these cards (almost) for free --that is if you had freshman, teacher's desk or begging student (cards that are currently in the banlist for being too strong)--they would still be nice to have. But having to take an extra action to play them is almost never worth it. This becomes a problem in draft 7/8 when you might encounter a few of them in some packs. I favor a relatively low draft count --I prefer when this game is about dealing with resource scarcity and finding the right scoring categories to focus on, rather than ticking all the boxes and racing for ceiling-- but having to choose between many of these unplayable cards is not super fun and actually reduces the odds of making other "niche" combos happen.

I think the weak cards ban lists suggested above are super reasonable. From my experience, these unplayable cards are, indeed, typically occupations, rather than minors. Some of these cards have some niche uses, like sugar baker, hardworking man, or wealthy man. I would be fine with keeping them or getting rid of them. I don't think my experience as a player is strongly affected by missing out on the one in a thousand games where I could make wealthy man work.

In short, I am in favor of removing the 10-15 most unplayable cards from the draft. The 10 cards listed by Alex in the post above mine should make the list. I don't care too much if we add a few more to that list or not, as removing these 10 cards should hopefully fix the problem of having to chose between many unplayable cards in low count drafts.

[Skogsharald6]

Surprised by the overall positive attitude to removing weak cards. I am against banning any "weak" card, you can just choose not to play it. Part of the beauty of agricola is making do with what you got, if that means 3-4 cards in your hand end up weak, then you try to win playing fewer cards. All cards have niche uses, and if some cards are so bad that you can't even find a niche use for them then they are food for the illusionist at least.

Edit: I am only speaking about the competitive banlist for arena, nothing against having a weak card banlist for custom tables

[cranesflyhigh]

lezurichois:
I am very much are on the same page with you regarding draft count preference - I personally like draft 8 the most. The dilution of finding niche combos is a very good point too - just because Wealthy Man could work in 1 out of 1000 games (while imo still being bad), its existence also makes other actually good niche combos happen less.

Skogsharald6:
There is a big difference between not playing a card because it is unplayable garbage and not playing a card because you choose to do something else that you think is better for your game. The first isn't a choice at all, you are basically just holding a piece of blank paper. Let me put it another way: would you be in favor of putting more unplayable garbage cards in the game just to make it rougher? And even if your answer is yes: do you think that improves the general player experience?

Thank you both for your inputs!

I still stand by our initial suggestion of the banlist, I would not miss a single one of those cards. I think just because a card could have a potential theoretical use, while still being mostly bad is just chasing bad fantasies. I would rather chase good fantasies, which happen less frequently with more chaff. That said I do understand the hesitation of some people to remove so many cards at once. If Alex's 10 cards in his latest post are the only ones removed, that would be already an improvement. I would at least add Furniture Carpenter there to make it 11, as it is basically a strictly worse Cube Cutter, a card barely ever played.

Let's keep the discussion going! :3

[alexwjb]

Surprised by the overall positive attitude to removing weak cards. I am against banning any "weak" card, you can just choose not to play it. Part of the beauty of agricola is making do with what you got, if that means 3-4 cards in your hand end up weak, then you try to win playing fewer cards. All cards have niche uses, and if some cards are so bad that you can't even find a niche use for them then they are food for the illusionist at least.

Edit: I am only speaking about the competitive banlist for arena, nothing against having a weak card banlist for custom tables

I think the way the Guru page works, gurus can propose a combination of settings to form the rules for the next Arena season. So if a Remove Underpowered Cards option was added, it could be proposed and voted on by gurus like any other setting. So some Arena seasons might have it and others not.

[WallBuilder]

It sounds like this is 2 separate decisions:
1) Creating the option for a bank weak cards list. It sounds like there's significant interest in this, but whether it can happen depends on the publisher agreeing and dev time in doing it. But if it is possible, it's only an option, no one has to play with weak cards banned
2) For it to be adopted in Arena would be up-to gurus, and change over time.

[cranesflyhigh]

It sounds like this is 2 separate decisions:
1) Creating the option for a bank weak cards list. It sounds like there's significant interest in this, but whether it can happen depends on the publisher agreeing and dev time in doing it. But if it is possible, it's only an option, no one has to play with weak cards banned
2) For it to be adopted in Arena would be up-to gurus, and change over time.

Yup, this sums it up nicely :3

[torvaldur_makan]

I think the most boring games is when you have no minors to play. A theme in the revised cards is that the minors have unreasonable requirements or cost, while providing little value or points. This is my list of minors I think needs banning:

Facades Carving (Req Wood in Supply ≥ Current Round. Cost 2C 1R.) A036
When you play this card, you can exchange any number of food for 1 bonus point each, up to the number of completed harvests.

Lifting Machine (Req 3 fields. Cost 1W.) A070
At the end of each round that does not end with a harvest, you can move 1 vegetable from one of your fields to your supply. (This is not considered a field phase.)

Agricultural Fertilizers (Req 1 Pasture.) A073
Each time after you turn at least 2 unused spaces into used spaces in one action, you get an additional "Sow" action.

Future Building Site (3VP. Play in Round 4 or Before.) B038
Until all other farmyard spaces are used, you cannot use spaces that are orthogonally adjacent to your house.

Digging Spade (Play in Round 7 or Later. Cost 1W.) B051
Each time you use a clay accumulation space, you also get a number of food equal to the number of wild boar in your farmyard.

Growing Farm (2VP. See Below for Req. Cost 2C 1R.) B052
You can only play this card if you have at least as many pasture spaces as the number of completed rounds. If you do, you get a number of food equal to the current round.

Elephantgrass Plant (Req 2 Occs. Cost 2C 1S.) C034
Immediately after each harvest, you can use this card to exchange exactly 1 reed for 1 bonus point.

Perennial Rye (Req 2 Occs.Cost 1F.) C084
Each round that does not end with a harvest, you can pay 1 grain to breed exactly 1 type of animal. (This is not considered a breeding phase.)

Brotherly Love (Cost 1F.) D024
As long as you have exactly 4 people, in the work phase of each round, you can place your third and fourth person immediately after one another, even on the same action space.

Rolling Pin (Req 1 Occ. Cost 1W.) D052
In the returning home phase of each round, if you have more clay than wood in your supply, you get 1 food.

[Loebas86]

I agree with banning some of the minors with high prerequisites. I like 2-player games, in which taking start player can be tactically important. Too many unplayable minors makes it less fun. I mostly agree with the first 6 minors on your list (up to growing farm), which I never play. The last four I have occasionaly played and can still be useful depedning on (very specific) circumstances.

For me, banning unplayable minors is more important than banning occupations. I seldom play all occupations in my hand, so having one or two bad ones doesn't bother me that much. Running out of playable minors has more impact on the game in my opinion.

[alexwjb]

Interesting.

On those minors:

Facades Carving is also extremely low power. Didn't include it because I've seen it be used successfully a couple of times, so it doesn't meet the criteria of never having upside. But it's fair to say it is a very unpopular (average draft position 7.6) and low power card.

Lifting machine is garbage. Nothing more to be said really.

Agricultural Fertilizers is definitely bad, but is slightly higher power than the banlist cards and slightly more popular. It's the kind of card that would become the worst cards if a weak card list is introduced. I do have sympathy with the "salami slice" objection of continuing to take out the strongest and weakest cards, so my vote would be to keep this kind of card in.

Future Building Site - I have a suggestion to make it clear that it stops you building a room, as it ruins games when people don't understand that. (https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=144697). I'm in favour of banning it if the text doesn't change, but in favour of keeping it if it does. It is a legitimate card in some strategies (building a room then playing it in rd 4, a 2 room game, a rush to fence big early, etc).

Digging Spade. This one is a weak card but there are lots of worse cards, according to the stats. For example, it's got higher power than Gardener's Knife, Brewing Water, Grain Sieve etc which all seem fine.

Growing Farm is terrible and should be banned.

Elephantgrass Plant. We debated this one. It's very, very bad - low power and unpopular (average draft position 7.44). I could happily be persuaded that it should be included. It's such an expensive card for such a niche benefit. It's almost never a good idea.

Perennial Rye is even on my smaller banlist, agreed it is awful.

Brotherly Love - all the comments on Digging Spade above apply.

Rolling Pin - ditto. If we were getting rid of this, I think we'd be getting rid of too many.


In short, Lifting Machine, Growing Farm and Perennial Rye should absolutely be banned. Elephantgrass Plant I would be absolutely fine with including. The rest I would probably not include in a banlist like this. I'm keen to make this happen and keeping the list a bit tighter makes it more likely, I think.

If instead there was a High Power Cards Only option added to the settings, absolutely all of these should be excluded (and plenty more).

[George Smiley]

It sounds like this is 2 separate decisions:
1) Creating the option for a bank weak cards list. It sounds like there's significant interest in this, but whether it can happen depends on the publisher agreeing and dev time in doing it. But if it is possible, it's only an option, no one has to play with weak cards banned
2) For it to be adopted in Arena would be up-to gurus, and change over time.

Yup, this sums it up nicely :3

Am I the only one who thinks it is hilariously ironic that Username "Wallbuilder" is in a chat covering Weak Card Banlist?