Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Discussions about BGA (all languages)
Forum rules
Warning: challenging a moderation in Forum = 10 days ban
More info & details about how to challenge a moderation: viewtopic.php?p=119756
RobertBr
Posts: 667
Joined: 08 July 2016, 15:57

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by RobertBr »

Kayvon wrote: 18 December 2024, 21:14 My point in presenting the policy wasn't to critisize players, but to support the OP's suggestion. The policy goes right along with what he's saying.
This is wrong and shows a lack of understanding of the history of the site. The original site developers had a strong lean against the use of Undo and actively discouraged developers from using it. Their conception was closer to the 'touch move' philosophy. And text like the one quoted are hangovers from that era.
However, those people no longer run the site and have not been involved in it for a long time. The current owners leave decisions like this entirely to individual developers and apply a very light touch to managing volunteer development (for the obvious reasons that it allows more games to be developed). That means the player base largely dictates the attitude to development. And it has become increasingly common for that player base to play on mobile phones and tablets. Those players actively hate the lack of undo and confirm buttons (again, for obvious reasons). So developers included them.
As with any site feature (like the timer) once implemented it becomes part of the rules of the game and a player can use it any way they like including testing moves. I routinely use it like that when its available to reduce cognitive load.
You are going to make no progress and only experience strong push back if you insult other players and incorrectly describe site trends and policy. If you would really like an option to play a tighter real time 'touch move' version, the way to do it is to raise it politely as a niche option in the game forum, and attempt to gain enough traction to show the developer that it would be worth the additional programming time for a small section of the community to benefit (posting on the general forum in this way is counter-productive to what you claim to want to achieve).
User avatar
RicardoRix
Posts: 2540
Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by RicardoRix »

I don't play azul much so I could be wrong.

But the adaption could be programmed differently so the active player can make all the fuss over choosing tiles, and it's not until the turn is confirmed that the opponents then see what they picked.
It's the fact that the game keeps showing the opponents all the steps in the decision which is making it painful.

You should get the best of both worlds then.

If the game flows through different states, then that is when it could be difficult to reprogram.
User avatar
Tisaac
Posts: 2736
Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by Tisaac »

RicardoRix wrote: 21 December 2024, 12:54 I don't play azul much so I could be wrong.

But the adaption could be programmed differently so the active player can make all the fuss over choosing tiles, and it's not until the turn is confirmed that the opponents then see what they picked.
It's the fact that the game keeps showing the opponents all the steps in the decision which is making it painful.

You should get the best of both worlds then.

If the game flows through different states, then that is when it could be difficult to reprogram.
I personnaly disagree with that approach, i want to know whether the active player is doing some stuff or is AFK. So I'd rather see him makes moves and undo that stare at nothing during 2min each turn and then having a bunch of animations that would actually count into my clock since the server consider me as active while i receive these notifs.
For light games like azul where a turn is rather short, it could be a reasonnable approach but i wouldnt like it to become the standard for all games (except the ones where everyone play simultaneously, where hidding everything should be done unless the game specifically states otherwise, to prevent players waiting that the other one do something to gain information before playing)
User avatar
RicardoRix
Posts: 2540
Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by RicardoRix »

It would be no different to someone making all the decisions in their head before playing.
You are just not seeing their thinking process.
Animations counting into your turn time - it's the same for everyone. The automatically calculated turn time will factor this in.
You're not starring at nothing, you are thinking about your turn - without distraction.

it's very possible it's not nearly as relevant to other longer turn games, but this is about Azul.
Generally the undo annoyance is a growing factor.
User avatar
nik592
Posts: 1390
Joined: 16 October 2022, 13:54

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by nik592 »

RicardoRix wrote: 21 December 2024, 12:54 But the adaption could be programmed differently so the active player can make all the fuss over choosing tiles, and it's not until the turn is confirmed that the opponents then see what they picked.
Castles of Burgundy does this, and I agree, I much prefer this implementation. Kingdom Builder is another where repeated undos can drive you insane - but as far as I'm aware, the option to disallow undo was never there. It's only because it's been removed in Azul that it seems a problem. But I often wonder why other games don't just take the approach that Castles does and only show confirmed moves. I personally don't usually use the board to test out various states and undo when it's not viable, but I don't begrudge someone else doing it, except where the take moves, undo, take moves, undo, take moves, undo happens - I'd much prefer it to stay client side rather than having to watch it all.
User avatar
Tisaac
Posts: 2736
Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by Tisaac »

RicardoRix wrote: 21 December 2024, 14:05 It would be no different to someone making all the decisions in their head before playing.
You are just not seeing their thinking process.
Animations counting into your turn time - it's the same for everyone. The automatically calculated turn time will factor this in.
You're not starring at nothing, you are thinking about your turn - without distraction.

it's very possible it's not nearly as relevant to other longer turn games, but this is about Azul.
Generally the undo annoyance is a growing factor.
Ok i agree for azul it does make sense. The animation duration would still decrease your thinking time though because all of them would run once your opponent is done instead of running during their turn (only the last action animations are upon yout timer)
User avatar
Kayvon
Posts: 1059
Joined: 17 October 2011, 01:39

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by Kayvon »

RobertBr wrote: 21 December 2024, 10:36
Kayvon wrote: 18 December 2024, 21:14 My point in presenting the policy wasn't to critisize players, but to support the OP's suggestion. The policy goes right along with what he's saying.
You are going to make no progress and only experience strong push back if you insult other players and incorrectly describe site trends and policy.
I believe you've misunderstood my post. I was not critisizing players at all. They're welcome to play however they want. I wasn't describing trends at all. I merely quoted the site policy, as presented by the site itself.

I agree there's a trend away from this. I personally include undo functionally in all games I develop. It's a large undertaking, but it's also hugely popular. Your comments misinterpret both what I said and what I do.
User avatar
Tisaac
Posts: 2736
Joined: 26 August 2014, 21:28

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by Tisaac »

nik592 wrote: 21 December 2024, 15:29
RicardoRix wrote: 21 December 2024, 12:54 But the adaption could be programmed differently so the active player can make all the fuss over choosing tiles, and it's not until the turn is confirmed that the opponents then see what they picked.
Castles of Burgundy does this, and I agree, I much prefer this implementation. Kingdom Builder is another where repeated undos can drive you insane - but as far as I'm aware, the option to disallow undo was never there. It's only because it's been removed in Azul that it seems a problem. But I often wonder why other games don't just take the approach that Castles does and only show confirmed moves. I personally don't usually use the board to test out various states and undo when it's not viable, but I don't begrudge someone else doing it, except where the take moves, undo, take moves, undo, take moves, undo happens - I'd much prefer it to stay client side rather than having to watch it all.
As I said, I personnally don't like the client state approach as a player because I would rather see players moving stuff around during their turn that staring at a board and having no idea if the other player is AFK or thinking and receiving a bunch of animations at once at the end of their turn. Of course, this can still happen even without client states since players can plan their whole turn and then just rapidly click everything to take their turn.
Since it's clearly a mater of taste, the best would be to offer both but in term of developpment it is sadly almost impossible to do so.
User avatar
Meeplelowda
Posts: 3836
Joined: 14 March 2020, 10:31

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by Meeplelowda »

nik592 wrote: 21 December 2024, 15:29I don't begrudge someone else doing it, except where the take moves, undo, take moves, undo, take moves, undo happens - I'd much prefer it to stay client side rather than having to watch it all.
I fall on this side. It's because seeing the turn animation in many games means it's about to be your turn. You're eager for the game to move on so you can implement the strategy you've been plotting and it's about.....to....be....your....turn. NOPE! Undo. It pulls the rug out from under your anticipation.
Play Now lobby 4ever! https://boardgamearena.com/lobby
JohnnyCyclops
Posts: 282
Joined: 05 July 2023, 22:06

Re: Bored of so much undoing in Azul

Post by JohnnyCyclops »

Kayvon wrote: 21 December 2024, 15:35
RobertBr wrote: 21 December 2024, 10:36
Kayvon wrote: 18 December 2024, 21:14 My point in presenting the policy wasn't to critisize players, but to support the OP's suggestion. The policy goes right along with what he's saying.
You are going to make no progress and only experience strong push back if you insult other players and incorrectly describe site trends and policy.
I believe you've misunderstood my post. I was not critisizing players at all. They're welcome to play however they want. I wasn't describing trends at all. I merely quoted the site policy, as presented by the site itself.

I agree there's a trend away from this. I personally include undo functionally in all games I develop. It's a large undertaking, but it's also hugely popular. Your comments misinterpret both what I said and what I do.
Robert, Kayvon was replying to me. I was not insulted by what they wrote. If I had felt insulted they would have heard about it already from me.
Post Reply

Return to “Discussions”