Rank 1 Guide (3 Player/Arena)

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Andrewsmile
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Joined: 14 May 2020, 23:33

Rank 1 Guide (3 Player/Arena)

Post by Andrewsmile »

Hello, I'm Andrewsmile (and Bannedrewsmile) and currently hold the #1 and 2 spots in arena and I thought I'd share some thoughts on the game after playing it a few hundred times. I'll start by listing some broad and widely applicable tips, and get more specific towards the end. I think a tierlist for this game is generally unhelpful since everything is so context dependent, but I'll discuss quite a few of the cards as well. I was lucky in this game and got a lot of practice in early- during the beta for this game, there was a player named AZISss who has since closed their account but they reached 500 elo before anyone else had even broken 300. I played this player dozens of times (which was great for my skill level but not for my winrate :lol: ) and learned a lot from them-

General strategy tips

First, the goal of the game is to get 60 points by turn 7 in a fast game, turn 8 in other games- I reach 9 turns in 5% or less of games I play. There are a few ways to do this, but the most consistent way is to find a money generator early, a 2-3 card combo that can generate most of your points, and a point bomb or 2 for the late game. Probably my most important but most controversial take is that an end-of-turn points build (Freyja, Genie exalted, etc) is just too slow, too easy to disrupt, and too inconsistent. I think we've all had a game where we lost hard to this build, but in general I find it to take far too long to set up and leaves you at the mercy of the draw in the late game. Too many things have to go right to win with it, but players try it in a huge majority of games I play. If you have premium, you can see this in the statistics for my accounts: the average winner of a game gains 20 points from sand timer effects- I gain less than 11 on average. There are a couple of more nuanced reasons why this build suffer as well- mathematically, its quite balanced with other builds but it lacks flexibility. Your plan becomes incredibly transparent early on, every player in the game knows exactly what you are doing, how many points you stand to gain per turn, what cards are good for you, and what they can steal. When you lose with this build, it can often be because a crucial card is counterdrafted from you. It is easy to feel like you just got unlucky here, but in reality you put yourself in a position to get unlucky. Good players know what you are holding, what you need to win, and they won't let you get it.

Aside from overvaluing sand-timer effects, the biggest mistake I see players making is playing cards when they dont need to. For example, say you have 4 money and are holding triton (the card that gives you 2 3-stones whenever you draft a water card). It is the end of your turn, you have no other cards in hand or left to draft. You can either play triton, or pass. I see sooooo many players playing triton in this situation, but in reality they gain nothing from doing so. You can just wait until next turn to play triton, and there may be a better use for your 4 stones that shows up first. this may seem obvious to some, but this tip will improve your game the most if you have not implemented it. Always try to avoid playing cards until either 1) they will provide a benefit this turn or 2) you will be wasting stones by not playing them. And even then, sometimes it is better to waste stones than to play a card you're not sure will benefit you.

General game structure- in general, my games have played out pretty consistently of late. My first 3 or 4 turns, I will usually not sell anything unless I find a good money generator. I am looking for cards that are part of a bigger combo-This depends on what is showing up, but early on I am looking for Boreas, mimic, asmodeus, balog, hae-tae, tidal, phoenix, pink draw cards, aeris, and scorch. All of these cards are good with a variety of different cards that can show up, but will outright win the game with the right additional puzzle piece or 2 (I will list these in the next section). Often, this leads to me not knowing what my plan is after a few turns- I will have my bets hedged and then when the right support card shows up later I will strike- and since my hand is so full and so varied, my opponents will often not know what they need to counterdraft. This makes it seem like I get lucky more than other players, and I probably do, but I try to set myself up so I am more likely to get lucky. Remember that in a 3 player game a little more than half of the cards will show up by turn 8- you can't plan on something specific every game, you have to be flexible.

Powerful combos that you need to know about

below are some combos that if assembled will win you the game, and thus should be heavily prioritized (and also denied to your opponent)

Hae-tae + either yuki onna (both wins you the game, and/or also getting hestia wins you the game). It is really easy to generate 3-stones- there are 5+ cards that can do it, so Hae-tae is VERY powerful and the advantage of yuki onna is it lets you generate 24 points all at once (36 with hestia) which is absurdly strong.

Hae-tae + the card that turns a 6-stone into 3 3-stones (I forget her name) + anything that lets you spend money for points like mud slime or point bombs. This 2 card combo is the biggest money generator in the game. Even if you only trigger it every other turn (and convert a 3 to 6 each other time) it still takes you from 3$ worth of purchasing power to $18 of purchasing power when it triggers, which is hard to keep up with. If you have been drafting cards that give solid points like girin, eternity (really any dragon) you should be able to outscore your opponents faster.

boreas + hippogriff + either agni or pegasus. Having just the first 2 and then some pink cards makes this a win- getting agni or pegasus making boreas only cost a single 1-stone makes him able to often win the game the turn the combo comes out, ive seen it as early as turn 5/6 with salamander giving 4 1-stones every round. phoenix is very good here as well.

Tidal + aeris or scorch. If you can generate some money and draft just 2 other dragons, which is often extremely doable/consistent, the first tidal will be 15 points and the scorch will be 20. Between the points you get from the other dragons and a few incremental points, this combo is easy to assemble, cheap for how many points it generates, and can win by turn 7. If you can manage to get willow and dragon egg you can often get 3 or even 4 dragons down before the tidal comes down and you will win by a large margin.

Mimic + the green giant (+the golems make this a surefire win). As long as you have mimic, you can throw green cards in the discard all game, fish them out, and slam down a 28 point green giant turn 7, remove him, and play him again turn 8. Having the golems, basilisk, or medusa make this very consistent. This strategy is very hard to counterdraft because just picking green cards isnt enough, you have to put them in hand since discarding them doesnt work. The fun bonus card here is the green hate-dragon, gust, because you can use it to discard an opponents green card and then steal it.

Asmodeus + (forest spirit or ifrit or succubus or ignis). Everyone knows to look out for succubus, but forest spirit is an equally scary pickup. It is easy to pick some big cost cards up early and then hold them to either play for points or discard for almost as many points with forest spirit. This flexibility makes the combo pretty strong.

Golems + yuki onna (+hestia is the fastest way to win that I know of). Instantly turning 1 stones into 6 stones and then getting points from them without even spending them yet is very powerful, and yuki seals the deal. If you can pick up an extra 6-stone in between playing the golems, Hestia makes the second golem give 30 points and yuki gives you the next 30, winning the game as early as turn 5.

Pink draw cards- if your opponent doesnt know what you're holding, they cant play around it. This is more powerful than you may think- As I have climbed the ladder, players have been more and more hyperalert to what I am drafting and I am often far more heavily counterdrafted than other players in the game. This is both good and bad for me- some players give up their wincons just to steal something they think I need, shooting themselves in the foot, but I also need to be far more flexible about what I'm doing. Because of this, I am willing to pay a premium for hidden information.

Closing tips

Point bombs arent enough to win- a huge poseidon or eternity is less than half of what you need. If you are playing around these cards, think about how you will get the rest of your points

if counterdrafting will hurt your opponent more than your best pick will help you, its probably the right play. Opportunity cost is a large factor in this game so try to weight all your choices not just by how they affect you but also how they affect your opponent and what everyone's next best play is.

Let me know your thoughts and I look forward to seeing you on the ladder =)
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Darshan_P
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Re: Rank 1 Guide (3 Player/Arena)

Post by Darshan_P »

Well framed. However, I would like people to know that there's no absolutes. Sometimes, having that perfect card at the end can turn around the whole situation. Although, it's best to have a proper strategy to build upon. Best ones are normally those which gives quick points and doesn't take up too much resources/spaces
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MadCassowary
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Re: Rank 1 Guide (3 Player/Arena)

Post by MadCassowary »

Very interesting, thank you :)
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BananaHarambe
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Re: Rank 1 Guide (3 Player/Arena)

Post by BananaHarambe »

I'm digging out this old guide since we're back to 3 player arena and this was written by the 3 player arena KING Andrewsmile. It's been 9 months since the last 3 player arena so plenty of new players will get to experience it for the first time, the good and bad. I hadn't even heard of this game or had a BGA account 9 months ago!

I'm hoping we go back to 2 player Arena next season once everyone has had experienced 3 player Arena. It's a fun alternative over 2 player to have occasionally, ideally 1 season per year IMO.

Even though the cards and rules are the same I'm sure the meta has shifted a lot since then with more strong players entering the arena. I've mostly played 2 player Vale, especially online. I don't have specific tips for using the cards in 3 player but I will link to the recently finished 3 player Last One Standing tournament, which has high quality/Elo games in the later stages for reference. https://boardgamearena.com/tournament?id=339457

The finals features a slow Medusa/Rock Golem "points in hand" explosive combo build (80 points scored round 8), a sand timer freyja/genie build (low burst finish), and a firefox/balog/pegasus hand size build with good late game burst. https://boardgamearena.com/table?table=609820053

All games near the end were finished round 8 at the latest. Roughly half of the games finished round 7. Keep that in mind with the initial player order.

I wanted to briefly discuss how to assess turn order and player order with 3 player since it is slightly more complex. There are some technical plays that benefit from understanding the current round and upcoming pick/play orders. I also briefly cover turn order and playing around the discard dragon effects (e.g. Ember, Boulder) since they can be tricky.

Picking the correct cards is arguably (IMO) 50-70% of the skill in this game, the remainder is using the cards. I will summarize how I feel picking from each player position, First, Second, and Third. Each player will place their markers on two cards, a particular pair of cards, which will often matter for combos/synergy or at least stone management if selling.

Keep these ideas in mind with player/pick order dynamics so you can manage expectations for your picks as the game progress.

First Position (1st and 6th picks):

You get to pick 1 card out of 6, which is extremely valuable, but you will be almost guaranteed to get a near useless card back, especially against stronger players. Don't expect to get any particular card back because you have little to no control over it. The 2nd card returned (6th pick) will very often be sold rather than tamed since it will often be poor quality. Your first pick card should be high quality and ideally fill whatever hole you're looking for in your race to 60 points and suit the needs of each stage of the game. In a typical game your best first picks:

In the early game stone generators like Undine Queen or Undine are the best overall first picks. Getting a good stone economy in early game enables nearly any future strategy and allows players to tame more cards and therefore have more scoring/combo options as the game progresses. Being short on stones all game can be quite miserable without an insane scoring engine.

Around the middle game scoring engine cards like Balog or Valkyrie or missing combo pieces become the best picks. Many cards can provide safe/reliable 15-20 points over the coarse of a game quite cost effectively if summoned on round 4/5. Examples are Valkyrie, Freyja, Balog with a scoring card to recover. These are cards that score moderately per round and therefore require being in play a while to be effective. This is where the "engine building" part of the game often kicks off. On the combo

In the late game the best first picks completely change again since there are limited rounds left. Players are usually looking for more points so high scoring cards like Gi-rin, Eternity, or Scorch that score 15+ are going to be the most desirable cards. These cards are most effective when summoned in the late game and hard to come by so players are going to be fighting for them in the late game when scoring points is all that matters. With 6 cards to choose from there are decent odds to first pick a high scoring card. The odds of a second huge scoring card for 2nd pick are greatly diminished, but there should usually be something at least moderate scoring like a Tengu or Ifrit. The 6th pick card will 100% be a worthless card with low sell value so the 1st pick needs to really count!

Each game is different and sometimes scoring cards are not the bottleneck and instead stones to summon are the bottleneck. If a player already has a strong scoring card in hand but limited stones then the first pick might be chosen to enable scoring cards in hand. Sometimes a card like Young Forest Spirit will be a strong first pick to active a card like Eternity or Gi-rin or the best first pick will simply be a Dragon card to sell.

Also, remember that after playing in the first position you will be playing in the 3rd position next round. This means you will have 3rd and 4th pick and summon your cards last. Cards in your area will be vulnerable to discard effects from any potential dragons so take a moment to consider if it's worth dropping a card as a "blocker" that you otherwise wouldn't to play it safe. For example, if you are using Asmodeus and Ifrit in round 5 (no other fire cards), consider summoning another fire card to protect against a potential Marina appearing next round rather than a different card to hedge your bets (Ifrit recovers and Asmodeus would get discarded :( )

Second Position (2nd and 5th picks):

You are in the middle so you are in the most interactive position and have the most control over the picks. You get second pick out of 6 cards so it's still very likely to get a strong card, but not a card that the First Position player would be willing to first pick (keep their strategy in mind).

You get to interact with the Third Position player two times (passing and receiving) which makes this very similar to having first pick in a 2 player game in terms of pick interaction minigames, only difference is there's 1 extra card on the table to choose. The card you 2nd pick will obviously be unavailable to the Third Position player so there are often be opportunities to pick a card that's good for both players and "block" them, similar to the recommendations in my 2 player guide.

The Third Position player will pick 2 out of the remaining 4 cards which leaves 2 cards for the Second Position player to choose from. If there are 3+ good cards for you being passed to them you are guaranteed to get one of them back. Even if there are only two good cards for you the Third Position player will likely need to pick one card that's best for them (hopefully without overlap with you) which only leaves them 1 pick to block a specific card from you.

The 5th pick (second card) for the Second Position player is usually quite straightforward since other card goes to the First Position player. This makes the choice much easier than the choices in a 2 player game going last, which is picking 1 out of 3 cards to pass back to opponent (keeping 2). If you don't need either card presented to you then it will usually be best to block the better card for the First Position player and sell it if stones are needed. Keep yourself and the First Position player in mind with the 5th pick and you should be fine. Be careful not to feed them a strong card or else they will benefit too much from the round.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you are playing Second Position you will be playing First Position next round, which means you can expect one strong card from 1st pick and one worthless card from 6th pick. You will also be safe from any discard dragon effects (e.g. Ember, Boulder) from the First Position player for a round since they will be playing after you the following round. The Third Position player can hit you with a Dragon discard effect immediately after your action phase (since they play after you), but only if they have the Dragon card and the stones to summon it. Picking and playing first next round will make you able to play around the discard effects better by either first picking the Dragon if it shows up next round or picking a card from the same family to summon as a "Blocker" for the Dragon effect. Consider the play order when summoning key cards like Freyja, Balog, or Basilisk to reduce the risk of losing them to a lucky discard effect.

Third Position (3rd and 4th picks):

You are mostly interacting with the Second Position player and are at the mercy of the 1st and 2nd picks blocking key cards from you, but there are upsides to being in Third Position. The first advantage is pick knowledge since you know the 1st and 2nd picks and can plan around what they get passed back to block any potential combos. The second advantage is that you get to pick two cards together so you have full control over what pair of cards you get from the remaining 4 cards. This can be powerful when there are multiple strong card pairs in the hunt. You have the ability to block specific card pairs from both other players or take a particular strong pair of cards yourself. When in 3rd position I recommend thinking about the picks "In pairs" for yourself and opponents. Pairs can be with regards to taming both cards, one tame one sell, or selling both. Stone management matters too so sometimes your 2nd card (4th pick) will simply be the best card to sell to summon other stuff.

Blocking a card from the Second Position is effective since it's guaranteed to work, but considering the First Position player can be challenging because it's up to the Second Position player to decide what card they pass to the First Position Player. If there are two very strong cards for the First Position Player you will absolutely need to pick one of them and contribute to the block because the Second Position player can only block one of the two remaining cards. Other than that you are at the mercy of the Second Position player's decision.

After playing in Third Position you will play in the Second Position and consider the order change of the other two players. For example, the First Position player will be playing last next round so if they have a discard dragon effect you have been avoiding, now is a great time to play those cards anyways since you will get to play "twice in a row" against them. You will have a chance to 2nd pick a blocker next round and summon it before they can hit your key card. An example would be summoning Freyja in Third Position when First Position player has a Boulder in hand. Next round you can summon another Wind card like Sylph (drawing a card too) before they can Boulder you and if you don't have one yet then you have 2nd pick to find one and summon it.
Last edited by BananaHarambe on 09 January 2025, 22:24, edited 1 time in total.
rosenbot
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Joined: 19 March 2024, 02:55

Re: Rank 1 Guide (3 Player/Arena)

Post by rosenbot »

Great guide. thanks!
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BananaHarambe
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Joined: 19 June 2024, 17:40

Re: Rank 1 Guide (3 Player/Arena)

Post by BananaHarambe »

Just wanted to comment that turned based Arena is completely nuts in 3 player. Games generally take 8+ days with 2-3 far away time zones so players need to queue up a LOT of games at once and slowly grind them out over a long period.

I just started Arena and queued up 11 turn based games and am slowly working through them. So far 2 are complete, one win and one skipped player. I will report back when they are all done. Hoping to hit leaderboard with Elite and sit there, we will see!

Juggling all these games and trying hard in all of them has been exhausting. 3 player games require twice as much tracking as 2 p.

Real time Arena also has its challenges. It used to be possible to queue up and compete a game in 30 minutes, but now it takes about 1 hour to wait for players and complete a game. This is too long for me most of the time so I’m unable to play much.

Edit: All 11 original games are done, 8 wins, 1 2nd place, 2 skipped players. Got to Elite with 1649 AES, 4th.

Edit2: Season is over and I got 2nd with 1714 AES and only 18 completed games. 13 1st, 5 2nd, 0 3rd. For the second half of games I filtered out 100-199 players to create more equal games and avoid frustrating games with uneven tables where a weak player spoils the game with poor picks and feeds one of the other players too much, either myself or 2nd opponent based on table order.
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