Marine world in Arena

[sorryimlikethis]

When you say "a handful of people" what you mean is "the majority of the most active Ark Nova players on the website".

What does "the majority of the most active Ark Nova players on the website" actually mean? Where do you draw the line between "the most active" and "not the most active", so that you can choose "the majority" of the former?

In fact, the gurus seem to be limited to 100 at any given time, but I believe they can change, perhaps every day or week or month, so the number of people *allowed* to vote should be 100 or more. The number of people who actually vote is probably less.

I think it would be very unreasonable for someone that plays 1 arena game every season to have the same voting weight as someone that plays 200 games every season.

Yet that's exactly what happens. Gurus are chosen based on total number of games, not just Arena. And that's fine, otherwise Arena will be even more forever-locked into whatever setting the current season has: those who like it will play more and therefore vote to keep it. I've been a guru of games where I haven't played a single Arena game, where I wasn't even allowed to play Arena (less than 100 elo, that's unreasonable).

Gurus are "the most active" players on the website, and the majority of them voted to keep the arena settings the same as last season. I'm not really sure which part of that wasn't clear. There are currently 253 Ark Nova gurus, and yes, more will cycle in and out during this season.

I have no problem with people lobbying gurus to vote in Marine Worlds. I simply find it disingenuous to say the arena season is being held hostage by a handful of people.

[Jellby]

Gurus are "the most active" players on the website, and the majority of them voted to keep the arena settings the same as last season.

Yes, sorry, I thought you meant that gurus are "the majority of the most active"... Now I wish I had never written that

[goldlicht]

What's the problem of making MW action cards an option and disabling them in arena? Is there any criticism about the other parts of the expansion (in my mind the action cards or only a feature, not the core of MW).

[Azoken]

What's the problem of making MW action cards an option and disabling them in arena? Is there any criticism about the other parts of the expansion (in my mind the action cards or only a feature, not the core of MW).

You can't do houserules without the consent of the publisher

[rezett]

I don't think Action Cards are the only reason the Gurus said NO.

However, if there are cards that need to be banned, just list them individually and let the Gurus vote on them one by one. Wingspan’s arena has a ban list, so Ark Nova should be able to implement one if necessary. Don’t let a few cards block the entire Marine World from being part of the arena.

Regarding Action Cards, since this is a 1v1 game, there are several ways to address the issue:

1. Each player chooses one action from a random set of three cards. They receive that action and one other action chosen by their opponent.
2. Each player gets the same three options and chooses two to play individually.
3. Each player gets the same three options, chooses one to play, and repeats this process two to three times.

I think these solutions are fair and reasonable enough to discuss with the publisher, if needed. From the publisher’s perspective, I feel that not addressing the specific cards causing issues and instead excluding the entire Marine World from the arena reflects poorly on the balance of the game. As some in the community have mentioned, this makes it seem like the game is not well-balanced.

To the Gurus, I just want to say this: if I wanted to play a game with no luck involved, I would play chess or something similar. Balance is important, but many games on this platform involve even more luck than Ark Nova, and they still have enjoyable and successful arenas. I think we can find a solution to make this work. I hope you all can come together to make this happen, so I don’t have to rely on creating lobbies just to play Marine World.

That said, the final decision is up to you.

P.S. I know no one cares, but I want to share that I am considering leaving BGA if there’s no Marine World next season. I didn’t serve as a Guru this season, and I’ve already been playing less. I’m just hoping and praying that the Gurus find a way forward.

[sorryimlikethis]

There is already a suggestion to mirror/disable the special action cards.
https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=149765
If you feel this is a good suggestion then give it some support.

For me, personally, the unique action cards are the only thing that made me vote "no" for MW in arena.
I really like the animal unis, new CP track rewards and the rebalanced end games.
I like the wave mechanic and the addition of new cards.
I can tolerate how OP the reef animals are (though will likely still complain about it).
I really dislike how much variance there is with the unique action cards.

I have played enough games now to confirm what I already knew, they are not close to balanced.
Build over rock/water to get 2 Unis / 2 Partner Zoos before your opponent can even Assoc.
Break 1 for 7 money.
Dig the most threatening cards away while being able to freely draw from deck.
vs
I can hire a worker at Assoc 5 but I don't get to use either of them for the round??

There have been some fantastic decisions made to increase the level of competitiveness for arena, such as same map for all players and the alternative maps. I don't see why removing the unique action cards can't be another one of those decisions.

[rezett]

If Action Cards are the only issue here, this means the decision isn't solely up to the Gurus. It relies on the BGA developers and the Ark Nova publisher to make the decision and provide players with the option in the settings.

Nothing will change until the options "disable" or "mirror" become available.

Once those options are implemented, the Gurus can vote again to decide whether to allow Marine World. Am I correct?

Alternatively, could the Gurus vote first? Something like: "If Mirror Action becomes available, do you allow Marine World?" This would give the developers a clear indication of the community’s stance. Has there already been any vote on this?

P.S. I have already voted.

[yazavats]

I don't know guys. It's not that I don't agree that the special action cards are imbalanced when compared in a vacuum. It's just that I think everyone got themselves so spooked on how impactful the assimetry is going to be on performance consistency that they made it a foregone conclusion. Firstly, everyone is ignoring the draft mechanic, which at least somewhat alleviates the imbalance. There are three action cards that stand above all other in quality. In a two player game, if one player gets to pick between all three, at least one of them will go to the other player. And that's going to be a rare occurrence. Even when it happens, it won't guarantee a runaway game, it's still going to depend on the synergy with other game elements. And that synergy is not something the expansion introduces, it just compounds on it by a small amount. For example, sorryimlikethis, I've seen your MW sessions with JD on your stream. You've complained a lot about the supposed advantage he got, and yet you've won 4 out of 4. Why? Because of basic card synergy. Even the best players are at the mercy of the luck of the draw in this game, and I don't think the luck element got bumped up so drastically. But I don't argue it didn't get bumped. I fully expected people would advocate for mirrored special action cards, or no special action card settings. I was among the first to mention it on discord. But I didn't expect people would be so spooked by the assimetry that it wouldn't even get a single season in arena. Like, it's something new to try out competitively and that alone should give it a shot. Then we can see how much it shook things up and decide on future settings. But that it wouldn't even get that shot after people worked to conceive it and implement it doesn't sit right with me.

[goldlicht]

What's the problem of making MW action cards an option and disabling them in arena? Is there any criticism about the other parts of the expansion (in my mind the action cards or only a feature, not the core of MW).

You can't do houserules without the consent of the publisher

Mirror maps are a house rule, the games was never supposed to be non asymmetric. And with asymmetry comes imbalance, which is nearly always an imbalance in powerlevel.

That's what ark nova always had in it's core. It got stronger with action cards, but there is a lot of room to explore new strategies as well.

[Tisaac]

What's the problem of making MW action cards an option and disabling them in arena? Is there any criticism about the other parts of the expansion (in my mind the action cards or only a feature, not the core of MW).

You can't do houserules without the consent of the publisher

Mirror maps are a house rule

Correction: mirror maps are a house rule approved by the publisher.