Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX duration

Tournaments organization / Organisation des tournois
Gulchen
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Joined: 01 October 2017, 06:55

Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by Gulchen »

Albatraous wrote: 21 April 2023, 12:10 At the very least you should be able to put what times you are available to play, and the delay only add up then.

Well, at least for Manual tables, the table-creator can have there
be 12 ​ Playing hours ​ by choosing ​ ​ ​ Fast Turn-based ​ , ​ ​ ​ although

I believe these will be the same UTC hours for everyone, rather than being
[the corresponding times in each player's time zone] or [chosen by each player]
and
I don't know if this is still possible for tournaments

.
yfimc
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by yfimc »

Mathew5000 wrote: 29 March 2023, 10:44 You should already be checking the tournament settings in detail before you join. Only join a tournament if you think you'll be able to play your moves within the allotted time. Otherwise, it's unfair to the other players, who did manage to play on time.
This is not always realistic. How do you know how much time you need? If you play regular turn based games at 4 turns per day speed you may think whatever the tournament organizer set up is enough. But then you have someone from another time zone at your table and suddenly you lose 7 hours off your clock every night…
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nik592
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by nik592 »

Yep, happens to me frequently. I almost never run out of time in non-tournament play (occasionally life gets away from me, and I don't log on for a day or two, but usually I am on here multiple times per day), yet any time I play a tournament, I know that timeouts and bootings are probably part of the deal. And then other times I meet a player who happens to be online during my waking hours and we finish a game in the space of half a day. I can't predict which it's going to be, and I certainly play less tournaments than I used to. I remember my first tournament, I thought the time mentioned was per turn, and I was shocked to find my "12 hours" was already gone by my second move (which came after an overnight). It isn't obvious about the difference in tournament play (fixed turn time instead of time per turn like everywhere else) and definitely catches new players unawares.
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BananaHarambe
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by BananaHarambe »

Mathew5000 wrote: 29 March 2023, 10:44
TeddyKGBUK wrote: 28 March 2023, 11:19 In future I am going to be forced to check the setting of the tournment in detail before I join it because sometimes I might only be able to get on once or twice in a day.
You should already be checking the tournament settings in detail before you join. Only join a tournament if you think you'll be able to play your moves within the allotted time. Otherwise, it's unfair to the other players, who did manage to play on time.
Hi Matthew, is there a way to get an indication of how many turns a game is expected to take (on average) based on the number of players? For turn based tournaments the number of turns per game must be the biggest factor in determining if a game will be completed on time. The complexity of thought and time to play your moves per turn don’t seem likely to affect it.

This would be a really helpful tool for BGA to provide to tournament organizers and players. Something that said “most games are completed after X-Y turns” so players can calculate if they can make their moves in time.

What’s a normal standard for number of turns per day? For a single game tournament I set it for about 3 turns per day to complete so 7 days for a 2 player game that seems to have about 20 “turns”. For a round robin with 6+ games at once, I extend it to 10 days, which is about 2 moves per day to keep it on schedule.

I tried 5 day games, but I found that over 10% of games were going to end of 5 days, excluding absent players and it seems better now with 7 days. That’s an adjustment from about 4 turns per day down to 3
Last edited by BananaHarambe on 11 January 2025, 06:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Mathew5000
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by Mathew5000 »

BananaHarambe wrote: 11 January 2025, 06:39 Hi Matthew, is there a way to get an indication of how many turns a game is expected to take (on average) based on the number of players?
Not that I'm aware of. When I create tournaments I just set game duration to the maximum (30 days) unless I have good reason to believe that players will generally be able to finish each game within 15 days.
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BananaHarambe
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by BananaHarambe »

Mathhew I think it’s simple to pick game duration for a 2 player game, but difficult for a 3+ player game because it can be difficult to get schedules to line up. Also, the math on turns and the time are more complex.

For a 2 player Ticket to ride game it’s safe to assume completion in 45 turns as per the stats (as an example) so it would be reasonable to do 15 day duration and expect 3 moves per day. Most turns are quite simply drawing cards so if the players are both online there should be opportunities for both players to just pick up a bunch of cards back to back and advance the game.

For a player that can only make 3 moves throughout the day at specific times, this might not be enough time because the other player could keep moving 10 minutes after they move, putting clock pressure on them and then be a jerk and skip them when out of time. To avoid this, I believe being able to play at least twice as fast, 6 moves per day eliminates the chance for a player to use the clock against you.

In a 4+ player game it seems common that whoever has the clock running the longest while busy sleeping or at work will run into time trouble (within playing hours) outside of their control. Getting more than 1 turn played across 4+ people throughout 24 hours can be hard sometimes which puts you at the mercy of other players pace of play. I can see why some people prefer playing hours because of the clock running down while away.

In a 2 player game with no playing hours it’s always safe to go away or asleep for 8-10 hours every day if you can play the remainder of the time since you would need to deplete over 12 hours every 24 hours to go over time. This makes 2 player time management much easier and predictable.

I’ve found 3 player games a lot more difficult to get in sync for fast completion. I imagine 4 player games are even harder but I haven’t tried them yet tbh.

Also, I just noticed you’re Vancouver based too, nice!
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JohnRM
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by JohnRM »

I just experienced an egregious example where a player 'skipped' me immediately on my final turn of the final table of a tournament. They probably specifically chose me to skip, as the player right before me was much further in the red yet they waited to skip me as soon as that other player finished their turn.

I was only 46 minutes over time while the player before me was 13 hours over, yet the player 13 hours over actually 'won' the tournament along with the rest of the table because the skipper targeted me to skip.

So not only can you 'skip' to win tournaments in the final game no matter how badly you're playing but you can manufacture the complete results by targeting specific players to skip if multiple are over time.

https://boardgamearena.com/6/wingspan?table=612481773

Replay:
https://boardgamearena.com/6/wingspan?t ... r=89166789
Last edited by JohnRM on 18 January 2025, 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
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nik592
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by nik592 »

JohnRM wrote: 18 January 2025, 10:21 So not only can you 'skip' to win tournaments in the final game no matter how badly you're playing but you can manufacture the complete results by targeting specific players to skip if multiple are over time.
Yes. You're not the first and won't be the last to experience this. Your only real option to affect some change is to vote for one (or more) of the bugs related to the issues around tournaments. See here: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 91#p162091 for a pretty good summary.

Also, you shouldn't call out a player by name - that's not what the forums are for, and you may well find yourself moderated (so I'd edit your post before a mod comes by).
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JohnRM
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by JohnRM »

nik592 wrote: 18 January 2025, 12:44
JohnRM wrote: 18 January 2025, 10:21 So not only can you 'skip' to win tournaments in the final game no matter how badly you're playing but you can manufacture the complete results by targeting specific players to skip if multiple are over time.
Yes. You're not the first and won't be the last to experience this. Your only real option to affect some change is to vote for one (or more) of the bugs related to the issues around tournaments. See here: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewto ... 91#p162091 for a pretty good summary.

Also, you shouldn't call out a player by name - that's not what the forums are for, and you may well find yourself moderated (so I'd edit your post before a mod comes by).
Thanks, followed your advice :0

I found my example particularly bad as this was a grueling months long tournament where one player decided to blow it up on the final turn of the final table; clearly in bad faith as they had no chance to win while the clear favorite was slightly over time but still active.
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RazorOz
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Re: Give the option of tournament creator to not allow SKIP players before game reach a certain percentage of MAX durati

Post by RazorOz »

JohnRM wrote: 18 January 2025, 10:21 I just experienced an egregious example where a player 'skipped' me immediately on my final turn of the final table of a tournament. They probably specifically chose me to skip, as the player right before me was much further in the red yet they waited to skip me as soon as that other player finished their turn.

I was only 46 minutes over time while the player before me was 13 hours over, yet the player 13 hours over actually 'won' the tournament along with the rest of the table because the skipper targeted me to skip.

So not only can you 'skip' to win tournaments in the final game no matter how badly you're playing but you can manufacture the complete results by targeting specific players to skip if multiple are over time.

https://boardgamearena.com/6/wingspan?table=612481773

Replay:
https://boardgamearena.com/6/wingspan?t ... r=89166789
Wouldn't have helped if you were over time anyway, but I would suspect Wingspan in the long run to be on the list of games where they implement the game runs to completion regardless if someone leaves the game or not. Wingspan isn't that heavily impacted by a player leaving mid-game is it?

10 day clock for 5 player games was probably too ambitious, if it had a longer clock with the above implementation you would have been fine.
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