Number clue on chop in >=3p

[ElinaGranger]

Hey everyone! So, say we have a playable card on chop but we can't clue it with color. I've seen many players including myself that when we clue this playable chop card alongside others with a number clue, we mean that the chop one is playable, not the leftmost. If it wasn't, we would just let it be discarded and wait to clue the left one. But I see on BGA's basic conventions the phrase:

"if it’s a number clue which touches the chop: you need to wonder if the chop card could be critical or not (from the point of view of the player who gave the clue). If yes, it’s a save clue, and you need to save all your clued cards. If not, it’s a play clue, and you need to play the leftmost one."

So, what do u guys think about this convention? Can I make a petition somehow for this rule to change? Or have an option when setting the table that indicates that the chop one is to be played?

[Romain672]

Hi, long post, as usual
There is a concept named 'chop focus' which mean that when you give a clue which touch the chop, the focus is on the chop.

With bga's convention, this is weirdly off for play clues (ie if no 3 are discarded, at least one 3 is playable, and you receive a 3 clue, you play the leftmost 3), and on for save clues (ie if some useful 3 are discarded, not all 3 are playable and you receive a 3 clue where one 3 touch the chop, you assume it's a save clue on the rightmost 3).

With hgroup's convetions, chop focus is always on, which mean if at any point you receive a blue clue which touch the chop, the clue would be focus on that chop. (since saves are on with color with hgroup, that mean that it's either a save on that blue card if it's possible, else it's a play clue on that chop card).

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Now let's talk about 'logic' and context, what you can deduce whatever conventions you are using.
Played: b1. Discarded: b3.
It's your turn you discard.
Then your previous player give you a blue clue which touch two blue cards and your chop. No blue are on finesse position.

So firstly, you need to check if others got clues available, and if so, if clueing you was fine or not, maybe there was a lot of plays clues/finesses/saves to do, and clueing you wasn't a priority, even if it's rare.
Secondly, you need to check when b1 was played. Was it recent? Does it occurs after your last discard?
Thirdly, is there anyone which discarded, or who hold a b2 (then it's weird for you to not have clued it). Because if two players got b2, then clueing it can be easily tricky.
So now we removed most of the cases where player would not clue your potential b2 as soon as possible. So let's see others cases.

Forthly, if you discarded a blue card, like b1, then this logic doesn't work. That blue was annoying, and so everyone could have waited for you to discard your blue card to give you a play clue. So let's assume you discarded a non blue card.

Fifthly, if you received b-x-x-b, then you know that in the previous turn you got x-x-b-x and that wasn't clued, so that rightmost blue should not be playable. But now with b-x-x-b, that's still ambigous. With bga, you would assume a play clue on the leftmost card. But if you play with color saves (bga don't, hgroup does), then that could be a save on that rightmost blue too.

Sixthly, if you received x-b-x-b, then in your previous turn, you got b-x-b-x, and that wasn't clued. So you seem to know that the leftmost blue wasn't playable one turn earlier. So if you receive that clue on bga, it could not make sense. You could assume a mistake/something not optimal/you who didn't followed one thing and just play normally, or you could delay that play and do something else which is normal. Note that it's possible even if unlikely that you got r2-b2-x-b2 per example, and so clueing blue now, with a follow up later with 2 can be fine, especially if b3 is visible in another hand. But so with that read you gained a lot of information.

Seventhly, if you are allowed to discard, decided to clue something you wasn't forced to do, and if you received a b-x-x-b clue, then you know that your rightmost blue isn't great. That's more likely a b4 that others didn't cared much if it was discarded or not, but could be a b1 in rare cases (it's more probable if there was an higher blue card on the stacks).

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Now if you change the blue by a number, that's more complicated since there is a lot of colors going on, and if per example a r2 has been played since your last turn, then all 3 clues could be about r3. And knowing if you could hold r3 or not is a lot more tricky.

But chop focus is totally fine, like color saves, the problem is that it increase complexity, and bga try to reduce it a lot.

[Blacktango]

I agree with everything Romain said, especially the last sentence: "it increases complexity, and bga try to reduce it a lot."

On BGA we play with many different players, even if they are experts or masters, most of them have never read any tutorial/guide about the conventions.
They have just learned it from their experience by playing on BGA.

So the more exceptions you make to the conventions, the harder it is to get everyone on the same page.
H-group, for example, uses a very precise guide to explain what it is allowed and what is not, so that all players playing there are supposed to follow the same rules.

In most cases, I find it useful to splash a number on the rightmost card(s) to make the leftmost card played.
If you play a lot of BGA, you usually don't get the perfect score if: you make some mistakes, the deck is extreme, or you let too many useful cards to be discarded.
Splashing the right most cards will help with the last problem.

Of course, sometimes it is a bit silly and we would prefer to make play the Bk4 from the chop by cluing three 4, instead of the leftmost one.
But IMO, this doesn't happen very often.

The question that remains is: "Are the few times you need such a convention worth it, compared to all the other times you want the other cards to be splashed?"
If the answer is "yes", then you have to define in which cases the clue receiver should consider which card to play.
The easier conventions are, of course, "always play the chop one" or "always play the leftmost".
If it depends on the context, how to define a clear/logical convention like this time this means left most, this time this means right most?

For example, would you say it is worth splashing two extra 2 to make play the leftmost, or better to allow such a clue to makes play the rightmost by a number clue?

Typically, I would say that allowing to play the Bk4 from chop is useful, but splashing the right most 2 is useful too. Both cases use an opposite convention.
And what about the ofther numbers? What if you see that one of the 4 will need to be saved soon because someone else has it close to the chop (and so worth to be splashed)?

[Blacktango]

Note that on BGA, there are already some exceptions to the "play leftmost" convention, with a number which touching the chop.

If all the 2s are set, then all the useful 3 are playable.
If I clue you three 3s, one of which touches your chop, you should play the rightmost one first, because if it was a trash, I would have waited for it to be discarded. Or I might have clued it in some other way (usually by color).
This convention is used by many players on BGA (at least from expert level).

There is only one unique 3, and it is playable.
If I clue you three 3s, one of which touches your chop, you should play the rightmost one.
This is because my clue can't be read as a play clue (because it can be a save), and so MUST be a save. And so, the saved 3 is the unique one that is actually playable.
This convention is not as well known as the latter, but is usually played by many master players.

[ElinaGranger]

There is only one unique 3, and it is playable.
If I clue you three 3s, one of which touches your chop, you should play the rightmost one.
This is because my clue can't be read as a play clue (because it can be a save), and so MUST be a save. And so, the saved 3 is the unique one that is actually playable.
This convention is not as well known as the latter, but is usually played by many master players.

I think this example is why I see many players from Strong and up, play the chop one and not the leftmost with non-uniques. Following the logic of the move you just mentioned might have lead to this.

[ElinaGranger]

But chop focus is totally fine, like color saves, the problem is that it increase complexity, and bga try to reduce it a lot.

Honestly, since I have some experience now, the rule I am proposing is already implemented among us. I see most players play the chop one, even masters. And I find it very logical and easy to follow. What I am proposing would really clear things up. And for those of us who do it, we will have an option to say so in the settings, if bga would like to keep the convention as is.

[ElinaGranger]

In most cases, I find it useful to splash a number on the rightmost card(s) to make the leftmost card played.
If you play a lot of BGA, you usually don't get the perfect score if: you make some mistakes, the deck is extreme, or you let too many useful cards to be discarded.
Splashing the right most cards will help with the last problem.

And what about the ofther numbers? What if you see that one of the 4 will need to be saved soon because someone else has it close to the chop (and so worth to be splashed)?

I have many perfercts in 3p/4p with many random players. It's not like 2p, the chances there to get a perfect is way lower. So, most often than not I do get the perfect score. And I play the chop one. I find it extremely useful as a move.

As for dd, I'm still figuring this one, because I understand now that when one of the players sees that I saved a non-critical card, he assumes finesse / reverse finesse (depending on whom u save it on). So then, you try other ways. Maybe a bluff. Maybe cluing known trash. Maybe splashing. But I will still prefer to have the chop one mean "play it" and not the leftmost. The only time I might break this "play the chop one" rule is at end of game, but still even then I will find a way to message it is not the chop one.

[Romain672]

Honestly, since I have some experience now, the rule I am proposing is already implemented among us. I see most players play the chop one, even masters. And I find it very logical and easy to follow. What I am proposing would really clear things up. And for those of us who do it, we will have an option to say so in the settings, if bga would like to keep the convention as is.

Bga's conventions are more a community.
The forum is imo a small part of it.

If you want to change things, explain it during your games, and once enough people explained it to others, you can start to write in chat in the start of the game that you play with X. Then, if that's still immensively adopted, that should became the default option.

Or yeah just a private group work well, it was the case with bga's layered finesse some years ago.


But when you see the difficulty to make people adopt the play 1s from right to left, imposing a move which have a chance to lose the game is bad.

[Romain672]

As for dd, I'm still figuring this one, because I understand now that when one of the players sees that I saved a non-critical card, he assumes finesse / reverse finesse (depending on whom u save it on). So then, you try other ways. Maybe a bluff. Maybe cluing known trash. Maybe splashing. But I will still prefer to have the chop one mean "play it" and not the leftmost. The only time I might break this "play the chop one" rule is at end of game, but still even then I will find a way to message it is not the chop one.

What is dd?
Yeah bga and hgroup btw don't have anything to save non critical cards in chop (hgroup though play with those weird 3-bluff where a 3 clue would call for only one play which make more 3 saved, and with 2-saves in multiplayer).

The thing is that most of the time if your chop is playable, you can clue it before. The main upside is at the start of the game (right focus is better in early game).
When you play with stronger players, they will try to pay attention to which player will discard, and if they see a really important non critical card in chop they will put more value on discarding to make that player give a clue (chop management 1&2&3&4 of my guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Vzg ... Mlyhc/edit# ).


Another big upside of chop focus is that you don't need any extraction anymore since any playable card can be focus. And so discarding a playable (without reason) make you sure you got the other copy (which add Discard elimination and others moves, like the fun elimination finesse).

[Blacktango]

dd is double discard, or dda (double discard avoidance)