Ban weak cards

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LTP56
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Joined: 06 March 2024, 21:23

Ban weak cards

Post by LTP56 »

What is it with everyone choosing to ban weak cards from their games now? Do you think you all know better than the designers of the game?

I think the game is best played as is, cherry picking the cards to play with and discarding the rest makes for a very bland game. That's my opinion anyway.
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buu441
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Joined: 12 March 2022, 06:52

Re: Ban weak cards

Post by buu441 »

It is an optional setting, no one is forcing you to play with it enabled :)
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Acerbic
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Joined: 15 September 2014, 17:12

Re: Ban weak cards

Post by Acerbic »

Disagreements about how the game is best played is exactly why settings like these are optional - please continue to host your own tables with all cards enabled. I'm sure you will find some like-minded people to join you.

As for "knowing better than the designers", I would say:
1) Yes, it's completely plausible that people who have played Agricola hundreds or even thousands of times have a better gauge on the balance than Uwe does. Agricola is a great game, but the balance is far from perfect and that's not exactly a fringe opinion
2) Whether or not anyone knows better than Uwe, the point is to create a more enjoyable experience. This suggestion has been brought up several times independently and had a good amount of support behind it
3) We collaborate and discuss with Lookout Games directly. If this game variant was offensive to their idea of purity, we wouldn't have added it. We asked and got their approval
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alexwjb
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Joined: 24 September 2016, 17:28

Re: Ban weak cards

Post by alexwjb »

I'd add a few things:

- There are now stats available on card strength based on many thousands of games, for example see https://pastebin.com/VxFtkhWF. It's not surprising in a game with over 800 cards that some turn out, after players get experience, to be overly strong or weak. There is now no argument that Catcher is awful and Begging Student is extremely strong. That doesn't mean I think I know better than the game designers, it's more that statistics of large numbers of games are more relevant than any one person's opinion.

- This isn't unusual or surprising. Game designers by definition can't know how strengths will play out over time. Competitive environments will often ban cards that turned out to be unbalanced.

- We're not talking about many cards. The game has around 400 ocupations implemented. The weak card banlist has 17. For minors, the banlist currently has 3, but will probably get another 10 or so added. So the weak card banlist takes out fewer that 5% of the cards.

- People sometimes worry about a slippery slope effect of more and more cards being banned, but the experience of the strong cards banlist shows that isn't the case - it hasn't been touched in nearly a year.

So yeah, personally I am very happy it is now an option, the fewer times I see Breeder Buyer the better.
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RicardoRix
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Re: Ban weak cards

Post by RicardoRix »

The stats don't necessarily show up the weak cards. An overly simplified average. They could be weak simply because the need for more requirements to be made useful. Roughcaster is only any good if you plan on building clay rooms. But at the right time it's a good card, and will show up in winning games.

I don't really know why draft 7/10 isn't the same as 7/9 with a banlist. At least as you say it's a game option, but perhaps more of a perceived problem as the drafting option(s) is already the answer. More options make it look more intimidating for new players. And you could argue you're making the game less skillful because noobs won't fall into trap card picks.

I do agree though that the options here in Agricola are very well maintained, and that the slippery slope idea is a fallacy. On the whole I don't see how this particular banlist changes much. But if it keeps you happy to apply the polish, and experiment then more power to you.
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Acerbic
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Re: Ban weak cards

Post by Acerbic »

RicardoRix wrote: 13 February 2025, 14:06 I don't really know why draft 7/10 isn't the same as 7/9 with a banlist.
Because they're not - the banlist seeks to reduce some variance by getting rid of cards that are nearly always unpickable. Increasing the draft count may sometimes mitigate this by giving you more options, but it also increases the overall power level in a more drastic, high-variance way and still does nothing to prevent situations in which an entire pack is dominated by bad cards.
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RicardoRix
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Joined: 29 April 2012, 23:43

Re: Ban weak cards

Post by RicardoRix »

They are almost identical.
You have an ever so slight increase of variance of cards that are initially dealt out, but that then has the drafting action to mitigate anything unfair.
At the end of the game there is still all the worst cards left in people's hands.

So red-yellow is different to yellow-red. They still end up both orange.

I'm sure you would get empirical evidence if you actually compared the two scenarios. Even with the extremely unlikely event of a single pack of unplayable cards the result is the same: a card that doesn't get played.
Last edited by RicardoRix on 13 February 2025, 15:45, edited 3 times in total.
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alexwjb
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Re: Ban weak cards

Post by alexwjb »

You are right that there are a lot of nuances to the stats, so they need to be treated carefully. For example, there are cards that are normally bad but have niche use, or cards that have a high skill requirement but in the right hands can be interesting and add to the game (Growing Farm is a good example).

However, that doesn't mean the stats have no use at all. To take your example of Roughcaster (though to be clear, Roughcaster isn't banned!). The data set I linked to has 599 games where Roughcaster was dealt in 4-player games without additional action spaces. It was played in 48 games and played in a winning farm in 7 games. The equivalent numbers for 4-player AAS games are 183, 16, 2. In other words, it is rarely played, and even when it is played, it wins much less than 25% of the time in 4 player games.

That isn't conclusive. Maybe it's one of the fun/high skill requirement etc cards which the stats are hiding. But then a qualitative discussion helps. In my opinion, Roughcaster both boring and pushes you towards a strategy which is normally bad (multiple single build actions). Others can disagree with that - and people did, which is why Roughcaster did not end up on the list. But others, like Catcher, Breeder Buyer etc etc, are both extremely weak on the stats, and qualitatively boring and and unhelpful to almost all strategies. So they got included.
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alexwjb
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Re: Ban weak cards

Post by alexwjb »

Acerbic wrote: 13 February 2025, 15:04
RicardoRix wrote: 13 February 2025, 14:06 I don't really know why draft 7/10 isn't the same as 7/9 with a banlist.
Because they're not - the banlist seeks to reduce some variance by getting rid of cards that are nearly always unpickable. Increasing the draft count may sometimes mitigate this by giving you more options, but it also increases the overall power level in a more drastic, high-variance way and still does nothing to prevent situations in which an entire pack is dominated by bad cards.

IThis is particularly true in lower draft count games (draft 7 or draft 8). The relevant point is towards the end of the draft, it becomes quite common to have 2 or 3 awful cards left. For those that want the option not to have those situations, why not?
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RicardoRix
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Re: Ban weak cards

Post by RicardoRix »

alexwjb wrote: 13 February 2025, 15:41 IThis is particularly true in lower draft count games (draft 7 or draft 8). The relevant point is towards the end of the draft, it becomes quite common to have 2 or 3 awful cards left. For those that want the option not to have those situations, why not?
If you ban 5% of the cards, then it won't be 2 or 3 awful cards, on average it will be maximum of 1.
That 1 still doesn't get played either way.
You're making up situations. And irrelevant situations at that.

There might just be the very slim outside chance that one of those cards can be playable in a highly skilled mind. Board games are all about decisions. The more decisions to make the higher likelihood is that a good player can shine.
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