In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

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Xhad
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In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by Xhad »

I'm considering setting up a Multiplayer Elimination tournament, 3 player games, 2 advance per game

When setting the minimum players/game I see this:
Matchmaker will not create table with less than this number of players. Games with less than this numbers of players (because of absence) will be abandoned.
Does that mean they just get a bye and advance to the next round? Or do they get eliminated or penalized somehow?
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BananaHarambe
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by BananaHarambe »

Xhad wrote: 14 February 2025, 18:47 I'm considering setting up a Multiplayer Elimination tournament, 3 player games, 2 advance per game

When setting the minimum players/game I see this:
Matchmaker will not create table with less than this number of players. Games with less than this numbers of players (because of absence) will be abandoned.
Does that mean they just get a bye and advance to the next round? Or do they get eliminated or penalized somehow?
Hello, the wording is a bit confusing. What it means is that some players (at random) will be SKIPPED if they cannot fit onto the tables with the required player count. Examples can be seen in this finished tournament near the end. https://boardgamearena.com/tournament?id=339457. Same as you are asking, 3 player, 2 qualify.

Just saw that you are interested in creating a tournament, that's great! https://imgur.com/sYi3mTE Image

Here's a logo you can use to communicate the settings visually. For 3 player, 2 advance there are a few nice "even" numbers that work well to reduce the number of skips. Consider using one of these values as your maximum. For example, use a minimum/maximum sizes with a combination of these values: 18, 27, 40, 60, 90, 135. The number of players per round will follow that pattern.

Please let us know if you have any further questions
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Xhad
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by Xhad »

Okay. So looking at this tournament I think it works as a bye; the 2-player matches just have both players progress to the next round. That's what I was hoping for, thanks.
FSKFSK
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by FSKFSK »

Unless it's a game that plays a lot better at 3p, 4 or 2 players per game works better. If you set up your tournament to have matches of 3-4 players with 2 advancing, you avoid awkward bye situations at the end.
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Xhad
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by Xhad »

It's Eminent Domain which does have a game mode/setting specifically to 3p. I'm also loath to go to 4p because going over time has been a problem in every round of the last one I played and I want "boot the timed out player so everyone else advances" to be an option.
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BananaHarambe
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by BananaHarambe »

I actually recommend 3 player, 2 advance quite highly for a few reasons, all assuming the game works well in 3p compared to 4p:

-Reasonable game durations. 4 player seems to double the game duration compared to 3 player, which slows things down. Even with a higher portion of players eliminated per round a 3p 2q tournament will likely complete faster than a 4p 2q tournament with similar player size. For example a 60 player 3p 2q would be 9 rounds and a 4p 2q is only 6 rounds, but those 6 rounds would take longer since they are 4p.

-Only 1 player eliminated per table, per round meaning that a player getting skipped or reaching maximum game duration never negatively impacts the remaining players. 4 Player, 2 advance is a great structure in theory, but due to the way BGA multi elimination handles skips, it will always eject 1 extra player (always with youngest account) that did nothing wrong. Hopefully there a fix to this in a later update, at least an option on how to handle skips.

-Reasonable pace of player elimination, number of rounds compared to players for most game communities. 27 players takes quite a while to eliminate down to finals, but additional players don’t add too many rounds. For example, 1 extra round needed for each count, 40,60,90,135, 202.

-The table breakdown on the way to finals isn’t too bad (compared to 4p 3 qualified) It ideally goes 27,18,12,8 (2 skip), 6, 4 (1 skip), 3. All games have the same qualification (2 advance) unless there’s a really weird player count like 5 players instead of 6? 4p 3p will always have awkward semi-finals with 6 players remaining where 2 are skipped and the 4p game becomes only 2q order to make 4 for finals.

-Round duration gets shorter on average each round (compared to Swiss). This is obvious since timeout/skilled players keep getting eliminated. The slowest players are gone after 1-2 rounds. Stronger players near the end are usually online often and faster than average too.

4 player multi elimination with 2 qualified does have a really good purpose IMO, which is in the second stage of a group stage tournament with the first stage as Swiss. Group stage will always make a precise number of players for the second stage which makes perfect brackets with a power of 2 number of players (16,32,64).

Doing Swiss upfront is good for two things: making the brackets the perfect size and eliminating all the slow/inactive players that got skipped in the Swiss stage so they don’t ruin the multi elim portion. This should reduce the odds of skips or timeouts in Stage 2.

Just my personal opinion. I might be too fixated on the “getting ejected when another player is skipped “ issue for 4p 2q, but it is quite a fatal flaw that leads to feel bad moments for the wrongfully ejected players. If this issue were fixed or configurable then I would highly recommend 4p (3 min) 2q.
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BananaHarambe
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by BananaHarambe »

Xhad wrote: 15 February 2025, 02:07 It's Eminent Domain which does have a game mode/setting specifically to 3p. I'm also loath to go to 4p because going over time has been a problem in every round of the last one I played and I want "boot the timed out player so everyone else advances" to be an option.
Hey, just trying to help you have a successful tournament. I looked up your tournament and tournament history for Eminent Domain and I found this old tournament that failed due to having insufficient game duration https://boardgamearena.com/tournament?id=85164

They made comments on the tournament notice board about needing to increase the game duration from 10 to 15 days AND adjust the options to make the game shorter (not familiar with the game specifics).

This more recent one had 10 days and had a relatively high number of timeouts in my opinion https://boardgamearena.com/tournament?id=350104 I would personally aim for a lower portion of incomplete games, ignoring completely inactive players. I see lots of games with scores 2-1-0 which means they went to maximum 10 days, good sportsmanship to avoid skipping.

Are you familiar with the time settings for tournaments? It’s always fixed time (no added time per move) and maximum game. I would recommend using 15 day game duration for 3 player. 3 day duration will be way too short for the vast majority of players. Since you are hosting muti elimination the slow/inactive players will get eliminated early even if games take a bit longer than you’d like. Rounds will get shorter as you advance and players complete games in the 4-5 mark.

It’s nice to give players a bit of leeway with their thinking time in case they have a “life” one day and to avoid players going over their time limit and allowing players to skip them if they are playing at a reasonable pace. An example would be if you selected 7 day game duration and the game is on pace to end in the 5-6 day range, very reasonable and typical right? However, one player has had the clock running on them an unfortunate amount, 12 hours per 24 due to overnight (they sleep first), plus a 4 hour period during work days so now after 5 days, 120 hours their 56 hour thinking time has been reduced to negative 4 hours. They can easily play fast enough to complete a game in 7 days, but now they are at the mercy of the other players and their philosophy on skips. Hopefully the other players are good sports and realize their pace is reasonable and let the game compete, but why not give a bit more time? TLDR is to give a bit more time (game duration) than you think you need. I’ve recently bumped some 2p tournaments from 5d to 7d because 5d was causing enough players to go over time and caused some unpleasant poor sport skips. I got a DM with a game link and a vent post for one, then other game I was tracking and saw the skip and talked to both players afterwards.
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Xhad
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by Xhad »

Cool, this is helpful. I withdrew the one I put together so I can think on it a bit longer.
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Mathew5000
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by Mathew5000 »

BananaHarambe wrote: 14 February 2025, 19:45
Xhad wrote: 14 February 2025, 18:47 I'm considering setting up a Multiplayer Elimination tournament, 3 player games, 2 advance per game

When setting the minimum players/game I see this:
Matchmaker will not create table with less than this number of players. Games with less than this numbers of players (because of absence) will be abandoned.
Does that mean they just get a bye and advance to the next round? Or do they get eliminated or penalized somehow?
Hello, the wording is a bit confusing. What it means is that some players (at random) will be SKIPPED if they cannot fit onto the tables with the required player count.
It seems to me that who gets skipped (i.e. given a bye) is not decided at random, other than the first round of the tournament. After that, I believe the server chooses the lowest-ranked players who have not yet had a bye. That's what I've noticed in Swiss-system tournaments; I don't know whether it's also true for multi-player elimination format.

Edited to add: I just realized that in multi-player elimination there's no such thing as "lowest ranked players" in the tournament (there's only eliminated and not-eliminated). So my comment is really only about Swiss-system tournaments, which was not the original topic of this thread. Sorry about that.
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BananaHarambe
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Re: In Elimination Tournament settings, what does "abandoned" mean?

Post by BananaHarambe »

Yeah for multi elimination the byes for each round appear to be totally random except for only giving 1 bye to each player.

I’ve looked for patterns in how it chooses and couldn’t find anything. 2p single elimination uses seeding for brackets, but multielim appear not to.
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