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[ft029]

I have now watched the game from all 3 perspectives. UNMI passed some very good cards (but often to royalrook! Kelp farming and mars university were passed, to take release of inert gases and some other mediocre card). They had some questionable plays but did get some great combos off. Their ants ended up scoring 7 points (with an initial cost of about 28 for the card that adds two microbes). Their early electro catapult gave them quite a bit of money to spend.

And it is undeniable they did well on milestones, getting terraformer+mayor. Their cities were not the most efficient, but were placed quite late, with an average of 3 points per city— not bad.

Their security fleet ended up scoring 2, with no other titanium cards available to play. Advanced alloys was pretty silly, I think they played it for the 3rd science tag. Their AI central came down in generation 7 and I don’t think the cards drawn from it were good.

I think the game is quite tough to win from royalrook’s side, with a very poor economy and good but not amazing cards. There are some minor improvements to make as people already pointed out above. There’s nothing that can guarantee a win of course, but there are plays that can increase the chances of victory. An example is playing/buying economy cards instead of SP ocean; it is fine to SP ocean but only when the time is right, since it’s expensive. Kelp farming wasn’t even played until the last gen, due to a lack of funds.

[FrankJones]

I've now watched it from Credicor and Ecoline's perspectives.

Notes:

1) I did not see any point in the game where Credicor was ahead. Maybe it just was no in the cards. The consensus is that Credicor made errors.

2) Ecoline made some errors too. Maybe Ecoline could have prevented some plant loss (Ecoline lost 14 plants). Ecoline did have protected habitats but discarded it.

3) UNMI was 5 credits short of ending the game on gen 8 with a win. Every credit matters. I have not yet watched it from UNMI perspective to see whether it wasted 5 credits on gen 8. I do not know whether security fleet was paid for or came as a free card. It was played using titanium only. Still, playing the card wasted a credit rather than selling it. The one point would not have mattered.

4) Ecoline had a bad starting hand. Drawing two great space events did help a lot. But the three cards drawn from the other prelude were trash. Basically that prelude was nearly worthless.

5) Gen 2, Ecoline receives Kelp farming from UNMI ( ! ), but passed it to keep Earth Office. Debatable choice.

6) Gen 4, Ecoline received insects. I really try not to pass that card, but in a short 3-player game it's not overwhelming. I think Ecoline got 2 plant production out of it. Worth buying and playing? Yes. I do not know which two cards UMI kept to pass Kelp and insects.

7) Gen 5 Ecoline received Crucial protected Valley from Credicor. That's a disaster. Ecoline did not have a 3rd plant tag for Nitrogen-Rich asteroid, which everyone knew Ecoline had (from the prelude).

8) Gen 6 Ecoline receives towing a comet from UNMI. Does not keep it (wise choice - the oxygen was going to be completed anyway, and the titanium and cash were needed for nitrogen-rich.)

9) Ecoline was able to use Mars University early on to get Space hotels. A bit of a lucky draw, but Space hotels at that point isn't exactly game-breaking.

10) Gen 8, Ecoline receives Research from UNMI. Debatable sequence here. If UNMI keeps it, UNMI can win the scientist award. But Ecocline would receive second place. Probably not a good play. Ecoline bought and played it for 14 credits to receive 4 cards (because of Mars Uni) and a VP. Seems reasonable, and perhaps was angling for scientist.

11) UNMI got great value out of electro-catapult. Unsure about AI central. The three cities (All were SP, right?) cost 73 credits and mayor cost 8. That's 14 points for 81 credits, and the income from the +1's from the cities. Not a bad deal. And it left UNMI with a shot at 2nd place landlord, though it did not pan out.


I cannot say that Ecoline got especially lucky. I mean, pas Mars University at your own risk. Ecoline received some really good cards from it to replace some very bad cards. And a valuable science tag, though it ended up not mattering.

Scientist was too close to call, so, wisely, neither player funded it. It would have been a tie, which would have been a waste of 20 credits.
Miner was also razor thin, so, same thing. Ecoline could have funded banker, but UNMI still had 2 cards, and some dangerous banker cards were still out there. Cartel, Miranda, Zeppelins, medical lab. Though I am not sure there was a possibility that UNMI could have afforded to play any of those cards if it held any of them. Ecoline had discarded hackers so that was a non-issue.

So, with no clear award to fund, Ecoline spent 23 credits on a SP greenery worth 2 points. And Eco Zone for 1 point. Those two plays combined resulted in an extra greenery from placement bonuses, worth an extra 2 points. So, that was 33 credits for 5 points. Very reasonable at that stage of the game.

Ecoline waited until it was clear that thermalist was going to be worth zero points, and then used heat to end the game. Good move. Ecoline could have played Optimal Aerobraking one gen earlier, before Nitrogen-rich, but it would have meant using Media Archives several events earlier. That's basically a wash, since the extra 3 heat would not have mattered. Except, maybe it would have. Maybe with that extra 3 heat, Ecoline could just end it with a SP asteroid instead of Eco-Zone and swiped points for Thermalist. I would need to check one more time.

Ecoline actually had import of avvanced GHG in the same draft as Optimal aerobraking. Thermalist is very dangerous to fund on such narrow margins with the hazard of optimal aerobraking out there and several known space events. And Ecoline had Earth office too, making GHG a very cheap card. And it would have added an event to Media Archives.

Further review - Ecoline could not have funded banker. There was no way UNMI could afford two of the cards necessary to win it, but Cartel would have tied it. Cartel AND Robotic workforce (on Tropical Resort) could have swiped Banker from Ecoline, had Ecoline funded it, but at the expense of Not playing Plantation, and giving up 3 points for Thermalist. Overall, that's a bad sequence for Ecoline - but, if I am Ecoline, and the UNMI player has 15 credits and 2 cards, I'm funding banker. If those two cards happen to be Cartel and Robotic Workforce, oh well. I mean, Cartel would have been played already most of the time, unless it was a gen 9 Draw from AI central. The play would be 3 fewer credits spent for one more point.

[xspuipuke]

The game was going to end on gen9 no matter what, there is no next gen. UNMI played security fleet with advanced alloy if he done anything else ecoline wouldn't cover. There were no need for city at that point if I drop city I lose gardener you make it sounds like I had all the time in the world to do whatever. I don't need to carry it if I can sp later whenever suits me.

If he doesn't spent so much on useless heat to chase thermolist he would score other ways anyway. Ecoline would have iced the game if not spending so much on the fillers.

Cupola is a bad play, you say, but an SP ocean was good? When you lost all the plants from that?

So you think spending 18 on 1 VP and 1 MC prod and nothing else is better than 19 on Cupola for x VP and 3 MC prod? The energy is neglibile if you have it from the Prelude. The best that 1 energy does for you is 1 heat bump in 8 gens.

Regardless, I never said Cupola would've won you the game. I just offered my stance on what I would've kept from your starting hand and did differently than SP ocean. Obviously, your SP oceans were not crushing, but rather draining money you could've spent on your power cards. The only thing Deimos and GIA did for you is lose the game earlier as you couldn't play them early when they actually would've mattered.

Again, playing Deimos when you had the chance was the play to make. You probably get Gardener either way AND get development AND hinder Ecoline. You chose straight VP which, in the early game, is like almost always wrong. A poor Credicor is not crushing. A poor Credicor is just that: poor. You need to use your corp's power early, which you just didn't.


@FrankJones: Which gen did Ecoline see Habs? If late, I wouldn't have kept and played them either. The loss of 14 plants late when oxygen is at max is neglibile. Plus, he had played a couple plant destruction cards himself, so the likelihood of even more coming is slightly diminished.

[FrankJones]

The game was going to end on gen9 no matter what, there is no next gen. UNMI played security fleet with advanced alloy if he done anything else ecoline wouldn't cover. There were no need for city at that point if I drop city I lose gardener you make it sounds like I had all the time in the world to do whatever. I don't need to carry it if I can sp later whenever suits me.

If he doesn't spent so much on useless heat to chase thermolist he would score other ways anyway. Ecoline would have iced the game if not spending so much on the fillers.

Cupola is a bad play, you say, but an SP ocean was good? When you lost all the plants from that?

So you think spending 18 on 1 VP and 1 MC prod and nothing else is better than 19 on Cupola for x VP and 3 MC prod? The energy is neglibile if you have it from the Prelude. The best that 1 energy does for you is 1 heat bump in 8 gens.

Regardless, I never said Cupola would've won you the game. I just offered my stance on what I would've kept from your starting hand and did differently than SP ocean. Obviously, your SP oceans were not crushing, but rather draining money you could've spent on your power cards. The only thing Deimos and GIA did for you is lose the game earlier as you couldn't play them early when they actually would've mattered.

Again, playing Deimos when you had the chance was the play to make. You probably get Gardener either way AND get development AND hinder Ecoline. You chose straight VP which, in the early game, is like almost always wrong. A poor Credicor is not crushing. A poor Credicor is just that: poor. You need to use your corp's power early, which you just didn't.


@FrankJones: Which gen did Ecoline see Habs? If late, I wouldn't have kept and played them either. The loss of 14 plants late when oxygen is at max is neglibile. Plus, he had played a couple plant destruction cards himself, so the likelihood of even more coming is slightly diminished.

I agree with everything here - and yeah, Protected habs came as a free card, late. Ecoline had already been Giant-iced, and Ecoline had already thrown away Mining expedition and comet, so, I think Deimos was the only plant-killer left, and wasting 5 credits on protected habs at that point with only one plant-killer left makes little sense.

(I had a couple minor errors in my long post, which I just fixed).

[xspuipuke]

And yeah, I totally forgot about that Kelp Farming. At first I thought you SP those oceans to get it online as quickly as possible but then, when it actually is online, you don't play it. I guess at that point it didn't matter anyway. And if that was the plan all along, I think that's another mistake. SP-ing for Kelp may make sense if like 1 ocean is missing, not 6.

[FrankJones]

And yeah, I totally forgot about that Kelp Farming. At first I thought you SP those oceans to get it online as quickly as possible but then, when it actually is online, you don't play it. I guess at that point it didn't matter anyway. And if that was the plan all along, I think that's another mistake. SP-ing for Kelp may make sense if like 1 ocean is missing, not 6.

Recall though that Great Aquifer was played in the preludes. And I think the third Ocean went down quickly as well. But, yeah, It's difficult to not say there misplays when Kelp Farming came out so late, when Giant Ice asteroid was played at 8 oceans, and an award was funded that got one player 2 points and the opponent 5. It's not as though the 5 points went to a third-place player. At that point, the game was between Ecoline and UNMI anyway, and it was actually UNMI's game to lose right up until the end. Ecoline swiped the win with a superb Gne 9 sequence.

The 14 credits spent on Thermalist could have been spent on an SP asteroid, resulting in a net 2-point swing between Credicor and Ecoline, and maybe that SP asteroid results in getting the bonus ocean at 0 degrees, while avoiding playing the other ocean card that ended up being a superfluous ocean when considering there was still intent to play GIA.

Also, there is no way Cupola and Underground City are the worst cities in the game. (I believe that was stated earlier in this thread). Corporate Stronghold is worse than Cupola. a 5 Credit difference with a penalty of 2 VP makes Corporate Stronghold worse, in my opinion. If it were just a -1 VP (which it should be, right? Doesn't "Dust Seals" establish the value of an early game VP at 5 Credits?), then it's a different conversation.

[FrankJones]

Another interesting note - UNMI was 2 dollars short of being able to play and use Electro-catapult in Gen 1. Would anyone have dumped Extreme-cold Fungus and Lunar Beam to do that? I think Extreme-Cold fungus is basically trash, especially with GHG-producing bacteria already played. And, I consider Lunar Beam a mid-game card, or at least late-early game, when it might be discounted and the MC penalty is less harsh.

[xspuipuke]

Yes, quite probably yes. With no targets, I don't ever keep ECF from my starting hand. Not worth the gamble. (As Splice, I might, but Splice is not here yet.)

[FrankJones]

This is quite interesting.

It requires examining the game from multiple perspectives and cross-checking the moves, but:

Moves 456-458 (set it to 456 just to be sure it's not one move too late.)

Perspective: UNMI.

Do you end the game here? It's obviously possible, even with the disastrous Birds play and spending 3 MC to buy Security Fleet.
At the very least, why rush doing 2 actions when you know you can end the game if desired?

Here's what UNMI knows: Ecoline has 36 credits and has large convoy. That's 6 points, plus 2 cards, and leaves Ecoline with 3 credits. Ecoline can convert 2 plants into greeneries, but does not yet have a city. That's a loss for Ecoline and a win for UNMI.

Here is what UNMI does not know: Ecoline is holding Media Archives. If UNMI ends it, Ecoline can play large Convoy, gain the 6 points and 2 cards, then use Media Archives and sell enough cards to play Underground city (Hah! Worst city in the game!), adding 4 points to the greeneries, and winning the game.

But, if I'm UNMI there, with a trash hand, and with Ecoline having massive cards in play already, and sitting on Large Convoy, I'm gambling and ending it on Gen 8. If Ecoline can somehow play Large Convoy and then still score 2 more points with 3 dollars and a few cards, oh well. Going to gen 9 gives little chance of winning. Once it went to gen 9, Ecoline had it and there wasn't anything UNMI could have done differently. Making matters worse, when Large Convoy ended up being played, it gave Ecoline the discounted Investment Loan, worth 11 credits (Earth Office discount, and added 1 to Media Archives).

[xspuipuke]

I would've stalled the shit out of that gen as UNMI. Having the power to end with a win is crucial but I wouldn't just risk it. Even if another gen is most probably more advantageous to my opponent, the chance of losing it right here and now is not worth the gamble except when my only move left is to either end it now or risk another gen. Then yes, probably end and hope.