TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

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cranesflyhigh
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Joined: 01 January 2024, 06:28

TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by cranesflyhigh »

I see a lot of high level players taut the supremacy of 2p games in Terraforming Mars, mostly citing kingmaking as the reason. I think this is misguided.

Most multiplayer board games have some sort of kingmaking potential embedded in them. Terraforming Mars has slightly more of that with the implementation of Awards, for sure, but any high level player that played at a decent table can attest to: kingmaking (and princemaking) mostly happens when the skill level is vastly different from player to player. I have played many 3p Terraforming Mars games with good players where kingmaking was never an issue - people also tend to be less salty when they actually have a good understanding of the game.

The problem is the BGA arena setting. You have no good way to filter to get a decent table. Even 200ish players can get to Elite given enough games, so making your settings restricted to just Elite players while helps, is not a guarantee. Also there is a problem of actually getting games. Simply put: I do not want to wait for ages to get a table, that isn't guaranteed to be a competitive table anyway. My current setting for waiting time is Elite for green, Plat for green/brown (not sure what color to call the second setting), Gold for brown. This setting does get me a high level table from time to time - which I enjoy the most. But sometimes it nets me lower skill players, where most of the time I win simply by being better at the game. You might rightly call this impatience, but just looking at other people's arena history, I know that many people can relate to this.

Ark Nova, which is the most popular game on the site, and 2p in its arena, is a clear example of how reduced player count isn't gonna fix the issue. Most top level players have to grind on low rated players game after game without much challenge, gaining a miniscule amount of points (see discussion in here). Terraforming Mars would be the same: having to grind on random lower skill players with the occasional challenge.

I am not arguing that the next arena season should not be 2p. I am fine with that. I do prefer 3p games, as I think the game is best balanced around that player count, but 2p is fun as well. But I do have an issue with 2p supremacists claiming how that format is superior. It is not. 2p games are just easier to organize between good players. As an avid tabletop roleplaying game (TTRPG) player I can attest that scheduling is the bane of most group play.

The competitive scene is not at BGA arena. It is at tournaments hosted by third parties. TfM tourneys organized e.g. on Discord, similar to how Emu Cup is done for Ark Nova. If you want BGA's arena to be actually competitive, you have to change BGA's arena system itself - changing the player count isn't going to fix it. Either fix the arena system or just accept that it isn't the most competitive scene out there, and enjoy it for what it is. And while I do find a lot of issues with it, I do enjoy it.
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RoyalRook
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Joined: 29 March 2024, 02:25

Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by RoyalRook »

You can just join a high level tournament here. It's fun try it.
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cranesflyhigh
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Joined: 01 January 2024, 06:28

Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by cranesflyhigh »

RoyalRook wrote: 07 March 2025, 19:59 You can just join a high level tournament here. It's fun try it.
I was not complaining there are no competitive tournaments out there. There sure are. I just find issue with 2p supremacists claiming that format is better for Arena for competitive reasons - hence why my thread was centered around the arena issue.

That said, and it is personal issue: I do not play tournaments on BGA, cause turn-based is just incompatible with me. For now, I exclusively play real-time.
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bwalsh96
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Joined: 23 January 2024, 16:41

Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by bwalsh96 »

No, it’s 80% the player count and 20% the arena system.
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cranesflyhigh
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Joined: 01 January 2024, 06:28

Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by cranesflyhigh »

bwalsh96 wrote: 08 March 2025, 03:36 No, it’s 80% the player count and 20% the arena system.
Good arguments, well reasoned. Next :D
primrose1234
Posts: 108
Joined: 01 February 2025, 20:03

Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by primrose1234 »

Biggest problem in 3p is having two strong players and a weak player. Game is decided by the weak player with random award funds, SP city mayor milestone steals, boosting Saturn or Tharsis with Jovs / Cities, Hackers-targetting gen1, misdrafting, killed plants or plant production reduction.
You are heavily dependent on a random player which adds major frustration.
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RoyalRook
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Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by RoyalRook »

You have the same people competing at the top of the arena each of the past 3 seasons. There is nothing wrong about the system. There is a game within the game. It's a controlled chaos. The best part about TM for me is the same with trading, the answer is always wrong. It's how to present the question to the open market, in this case the board. I don't understand why there aren't more table talks. I often find people get easily offended, but it's a huge part of trading. You have to able to manipulate both the market maker, strong player and dumb money, weak player. 2p players want to ignore all that and just play zero sum, that's fine but low level. I am a huge early supporter for 2p arena, but then I realized I can make over the counter 2p offer anytime, playing 2p arena would be just a huge waste for the arena system. We have an overall elo ladder for 2p which would never be threatened seriously from the 3p player pool bc of the inflation, so it's kinda nice we have a 3p arena and 2p dominated elo ladder. We finally able to have the cake and eat it too after over 5 years of bug ridden strictly 2p steam ecosystem for TM, and free for all none competitive web app ecosystem that doesn't track elo and no longer able to organize tournaments.
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bwalsh96
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Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by bwalsh96 »

You guys have the same debate every few months. It doesn’t make any sense.
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HappyMeaI
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Joined: 15 April 2024, 21:21

Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by HappyMeaI »

The game is most balanced around 4p, not 3.

Also 2p is mostly a tossup. I challenge anyone on this site to play me HU and win 3 consecutive.
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RoyalRook
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Re: TfM Arena: The issue is not the player count. It is the arena system.

Post by RoyalRook »

HappyMeaI wrote: 10 March 2025, 10:02 The game is most balanced around 4p, not 3.

Also 2p is mostly a tossup. I challenge anyone on this site to play me HU and win 3 consecutive.
send me 5 2p turn based invite, I probably win all 5. I will try to play seriously with you. 3p is cute, but 99.99999% of player here doesn't understand the true depth of 2p. Once arena is in 2p setting you can see some real top level plays. I say 2p is low level, it's because mostly there is no competition here and meta is still around 3 years behind.
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