Discards face-up?

[FrankJones]

And yes, part of discarding cards in a card game is that they are no longer in the deck, and only one person knows that information.

"And only one person knows the information" was never true, though, even if the discard pile were "face down" - the game log also tells you what people discarded. If you couldn't see this by clicking on the discard pile, you could always have gotten all of the same info by scrolling through the game log. But that's more annoying to do, so it's nice that there's an easier way to do it.

My apologies, I may have not been clear with my statement. What I meant was, when playing a game with facedown discards (Such as Earth, Race for the galaxy, Terraforming Mars or 7-wonders, or when discarding a combat card in scythe as Crimea), that information is only known to the player making the discard. That player knows something unknown to the other player(s), and this can be an important strategic component to the game.

Yes, I realize that the game log on BGA games shows the information that is visually displayed - and that is a god thing, since it sometimes goes by on-screen very quickly. (Such as a reserved face-up card in Splendor).

I think for the most part we are all in agreement here?

Some games have face-down discards, others have face-up. Wingspan, by rule in the rulebook, has face-up discards (which I find very odd and atypical, and disagree with from a design standpoint, but so be it), and so BGA does it correctly with their implementation (and steam, unsurprisingly, does it wrong).

My opinion is that discards should always be face-down unless they MUST be face-up (such as in Gin Rummy). Others feel differently. Both opinions are valid.

So, we're all cool now?

[Jontia]

So, we're all cool now?

I was kind of surprised how many well known games had face down discards. Not that they didn't make sense, but it's definitely an assumption I haven't often checked. Will have to pull out and scan a few rule books for clarification the next time each game hits the table.

Thanks for reminding me to check!

[FrankJones]

So, we're all cool now?

I was kind of surprised how many well known games had face down discards. Not that they didn't make sense, but it's definitely an assumption I haven't often checked. Will have to pull out and scan a few rule books for clarification the next time each game hits the table.

Thanks for reminding me to check!

Likewise, I might need to double check my rulebooks. I just assumed discards are face-down, and I ended up looking silly here in this thread with regard to wingspan

In games with hidden information, I find it odd that discards would be faceup when there is no reason - but apparently it is a lot more common than I thought.

[infamouswhiteknight]

In games with hidden information, I find it odd that discards would be faceup when there is no reason - but apparently it is a lot more common than I thought.

Not trying to pile on here, just something else to consider:
The final statement about it being odd to have discards face up when there is *no reason* (in games with hidden information) seems to ignore the possibility that forcing some (but not necessarily all) information to be shared could be a very intentional part of game design (and strategy) - e.g. *partial information sharing could itself _be_ the reason*

Games with face-up discards have more "information sharing" so to speak, but beyond whether it's strictly necessary for specific mechanics, partial-information games can be richer than either full-information or no-information games.

For example in wingspan, if you discard a card and tuck a card on the same turn, choosing which card is seen by the opponent (discard) and which isn't (tuck) is another layer of strategy.

[FrankJones]

The last sentence on page 9 of the Wingspan rulebook, in the section on "Managing the Bird Deck", is "The discard pile is kept face-up."

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/cfbnrvnw ... brl3a5wl7b

ETA: And in my experience, face up discards are more common than face down. Some good examples of exceptions have been mentioned in this thread, but going back to card games with a standard 52 card Poker deck, plenty of games like Gin Rummy, etc have face up discard piles.

There is a reason I thought BGA had this rule wrong.

My rulebook does not have that sentence. Everything else on page 9 is identical. Were the rules revised at some point?

[SUN29N]

Almost every deck-builder game ever created has a public discard-pile. And Wingspan is a kind of a deck-tableau builder.
I'm all for a public discard-pile. Since the random-drawing birds are unseen. Some birds should be public, to allow a more dynamic strategy and less luck-based game. Just like why not question why the discarded bonus-goals are face-up then?
Same thing.
To allow some kind of strategy-mind game to see what opponent didn't want could tell you a little what he chose to keep.

[FrankJones]

Almost every deck-builder game ever created has a public discard-pile. And Wingspan is a kind of a deck-tableau builder.
I'm all for a public discard-pile. Since the random-drawing birds are unseen. Some birds should be public, to allow a more dynamic strategy and less luck-based game. Just like why not question why the discarded bonus-goals are face-up then?
Same thing.
To allow some kind of strategy-mind game to see what opponent didn't want could tell you a little what he chose to keep.

I understand that point of view as one option. One can also make the equally valid opposite point. I can see the merit in both points.

But , isn't there a difference between a "deck-builder" game (Such as Magic the gathering) and a game that simply uses a large deck (Such as Wingspan and Terraforming Mars and Race for the Galaxy)? I know very little about Magic The Gathering - a friend taught me many yeas ago and we played twice. But I recall the deck being variable among different people because the cards were bought in packs, or something like that.

For what it's worth, 2 of those 3 large-deck games I listed in the previous sentence use face-down discards.

And, the rulebook remains unclear about what to do with the bonus card discard pile.

Also, keep in mind my own personal biases may be in play here - I've played board games and card games for a long time, and Wingspan is the first game I've played in which cards are discarded face-up unless they need to be (such as Gin-rummy, where drawing from the discards is a frequent event).

One could make the point that drawing more cards gives you additional information, and that some game designers might wish to reward a player for developing a strong card draw engine by not requiring that player to share the discovered information. That seems to at least be a possibility in the design choices for Race for the Galaxy and Terraforming Mars.