Forest Shuffle: Time to go all in with both expansions!

[Cos-]

From the publisher's point of view, I'm not going to say: I told you so..

Our editorial team knows their job. You made a wish, now enjoy the fun. We're not forcing anyone here to play with both expansions.

Have fun exploring all the options available.

This is really puzzling, because while on BGA sure we can try both expansions and then choose to play with only one, in the real game it would be a huge pain to try to separate the expansions after you've shuffled them in. If the game designers really feel that these expansions don't work well together, why would they (you?) ever make these expansions in the first place? Should they each have big warnings on the box, "don't buy this if you already have the other expansion"? I really don't understand this.

It's not about NOT allowing: The expansions were specifically designed to go with the base game and fit in seamlessly.
IRL, we expect you to mix them all in and you are totally free to apply #house_rules on how many cards you want to keep in your deck.

Truth is, on BGA, 2player is your preferred set up. And as we are playing by the rules, this means constantly discarding 90 cards from the game.
No house rules on BGA to keep the balance for players preparing for Forest Shuffle tournaments.

This feels like very inconsistent messaging. On the one hand you say the game is designed to work well with both expansions mixed in. On the other hand you imply "we told you so" that people _shouldn't_ want to play with both expansions, that it's better to choose just one at a time, that you think it makes for a better game. Which completely contradicts the idea that it was designed for both expansions to work well together. And then to seemingly reconcile those two contradictory positions, you imply that actually it doesn't work well to use both expansions _in two player games_ only, it's just great with more players, but in two player games, what makes it work well is to use a house rule and just not remove a lot of cards. But if that's so, why wouldn't you make it an official rule, to have fewer cards removed when both expansions are used in a two player game.

Personally, I think it's probably fine to use both expansions in a two player game even if you remove that many cards, though I think you're right to imply that it's a _better_ game if you don't remove those cards. But my point is, your various statements here are not compatible with each other. So which is it?

1) Do you really believe the game is designed to work well with both expansions mixed in, using current rules, for however many players?

2) Or do you think it's actually better to choose just one expansion at a time, in which case the physical card version of the game has a problem because it's a huge pain to remove one expansion and mix the other in each time you want to switch?

3) Or is it that you think the game would work well with both expansions mixed in, even with two players, if only the rules were changed and fewer cards were removed (or none were removed)? And if so, why not change the rules of the game to say that?

You can't hold all three of these views at the same time, yet each of these statements seems to match something you've said on this forum, which is why I don't understand your message about the expansions.

[Stockomator]

This feels like very inconsistent messaging. On the one hand you say the game is designed to work well with both expansions mixed in. On the other hand you imply "we told you so" that people _shouldn't_ want to play with both expansions, that it's better to choose just one at a time, that you think it makes for a better game. Which completely contradicts the idea that it was designed for both expansions to work well together. And then to seemingly reconcile those two contradictory positions, you imply that actually it doesn't work well to use both expansions _in two player games_ only, it's just great with more players, but in two player games, what makes it work well is to use a house rule and just not remove a lot of cards. But if that's so, why wouldn't you make it an official rule, to have fewer cards removed when both expansions are used in a two player game.

Personally, I think it's probably fine to use both expansions in a two player game even if you remove that many cards, though I think you're right to imply that it's a _better_ game if you don't remove those cards. But my point is, your various statements here are not compatible with each other. So which is it?

1) Do you really believe the game is designed to work well with both expansions mixed in, using current rules, for however many players?

2) Or do you think it's actually better to choose just one expansion at a time, in which case the physical card version of the game has a problem because it's a huge pain to remove one expansion and mix the other in each time you want to switch?

3) Or is it that you think the game would work well with both expansions mixed in, even with two players, if only the rules were changed and fewer cards were removed (or none were removed)? And if so, why not change the rules of the game to say that?

You can't hold all three of these views at the same time, yet each of these statements seems to match something you've said on this forum, which is why I don't understand your message about the expansions.

Hm I feel like the messaging is rather consistent?
The central message is: both expansion are designed to work well with the base game (which I would confirm).
You can mix both expansions as well, but thats not necessarily well balanced then, try at your own risk.

I dont see a problem with that. Sure its a bit of a pain to remove an expanison again if you have the physical game, but not the end of the world really. Usually you will play a bunch of games with one expansion then, until you want to switch it up and move to the other. Sorting through the deck once every 10 games or so is managable and really doesnt require a warning on the box (sure, could be a nice gesture to add it though).

And the great thing about having every combination available on BGA now: you will soon get a lot of feedback how well they mix, and probably suggestion for house rules to improve the experience.

[Cos-]

Hm I feel like the messaging is rather consistent?
The central message is: both expansion are designed to work well with the base game (which I would confirm).
You can mix both expansions as well, but thats not necessarily well balanced then, try at your own risk.

I dont see a problem with that. Sure its a bit of a pain to remove an expanison again if you have the physical game, but not the end of the world really. Usually you will play a bunch of games with one expansion then, until you want to switch it up and move to the other. Sorting through the deck once every 10 games or so is managable and really doesnt require a warning on the box (sure, could be a nice gesture to add it though).

Okay, that is the clarification: You actually do not think the game works well with both expansions. You've writing "both" a few times, but it turns out you really meant "either" - you're saying the game is designed to work well with either expansion, but not with both together. Previous messages seemed contradictory because you used the word "both" ambiguously, I think.

I do see a problem with that. It's a major pain to remove an expansion, and a big disincentive to mixing it in in the first place.

Now, I've only finished a few games on BGA with both expansions so far, so I don't yet know if I agree with you that it doesn't work so well with both.

But it is very useful to know that really is what you meant, that you don't think it works very well that way. And I think that does warrant a warning on both expansion boxes, to let people know that you believe they should only play with one expansion, not both. People who don't mind removing expansions that are already mixed in would not be deterred by that, and people who don't want to deal with that hassle would be happier knowing that in advance and could pick just one, or choose to buy two separate sets of the base game and one of each expansion.

If there are "house rules" that make the game work well with both expansions mixed in together, it's probably a good idea to make them into official rules.

[Timm-E]

I like seeing this discussion only 2 months ago and suddenly the change in Arena settings to All-In...