Willy the Kid should have 3 life

[Ceaseless]

Anyone think it's a bit insane that Willy the Kid is a 4-life character? He has a constant Volcanic, wouldnt it make more sense for him to have 3-life?
It's not the most OP character, but only playing 1 BANG card each round is an essential part of the game and he removes that completely for himself

Willy is an offensive character. Making any offensive character a 3-life character is an extreme nerf. I'm not even fond of the current 2 defensive characters w/ 3 lives.

I agree that Willy's ability does feel a little unnatural (even worse is Jesse). For this reason I pre select characters in my games (excluding both of them) and hope that they don't sneak in because bga only allows to select 7 characters.

Why bother handicapping such an underwhelming character?

cos people don't understand which characters are strong or weak. cos they don't realize that you can fire off all your bangs and be defenseless against "duels" and "indians", while "missed" and "beer" will be easier to steal. Moreover, in subsequent turns the player doesn't have that stack of bangs and sits with a no-features-character while the game continues

You still have to play responsibly. Just like having any other character with a volcanic.

Also Willy's feature is always there even after letting off multiple bangs. Wells fargo, stagecoach, general store, the ability to kill outlaws, w/ the addition of the 2 cards per turn always makes Willy a threat.

What characters do you have ranked above Willy?

Depends on role
Generally, Willy joins the top-5 loser-characters, but for sure he is never the worst

I strongly disagree w/ willy being bottom 5. Paul, Rose, Pedro, Suzy, Sam, & Duke I don't see an argument for them being better than Willy. & amongst the unnamed Willy is arguably better than several of those as well.

I'd rank Suzy a full tier above Willy. Suzy's ability has the highest ceiling for absurdity among our base cast in the game. Even without Volcanic you can find sudden spurts of wild drawing cycling through cards, and they can become very hard to play a grind game against as cards are whittled away. Variance tames them from being the strongest character in the game, but they're terrifying to deal with regardless.

You're also giving Pedro too little credit, their cycling tricks are annoying. The discard can very easily have a real card, the ability to know that at the start of your turn is nifty, though a wary opponent can help mitigate that. A clever teammate can support it on the same note though.

Paul, Sam, and Duke I'd probably put in the same tier as Willy, they all have their ups and downs vs each other. Pedro's occasionally invincible stonewall, Sam's ability to make themselves a magnet for danger, especially in developed games, can support the team rather nicely, and Duke being the second-best wielder of Dynamite alongside defensive tricks with Barrel/Jail are nifty too. Willy comes with a nice one-shot package if you hold it in right, though people have a bit too much paranoia about the character that likely hurts them a bit in this political game.

Rose I'd rank a tier below. Rigged advantage over Pedro aside, their main edge is their early game support ability for a team to target one player really fast, so helpful if you're playing 6 player as outlaws and decide to go straight for the sheriff early since the range issue is solved faster. But that ability often becomes a vanilla. Scope's a nice card, but not something I'd sacrifice a different ability for.

[gnocchi donkey]

I cant really copy onto this, but willy being voerpowered? and who is weak?. each charachter has flaws, bonuses. As one said willys power is basically draining cards. his chance of doing a runthrough is like kit blowing someone up. I see picked for sheriff..he is worse sheriff. Sheriff needs some special pwer other thn draingi his bangs. thare are 4 duels. Paul is bad as mormal but great sheriff becasue of the defense. and at 4 life still can hld 4 cards. Willy is the kamikaze pilot go all out and then die for the team. NOt only is he bad for sheriff, but ALWYS a target wiht slab and jesse at start of game. Willy vice tends to gret jailed by sheriff before he can show his loyalty

[ChiefPointThief]

I'd rank Suzy a full tier above Willy. Suzy's ability has the highest ceiling for absurdity among our base cast in the game. Even without Volcanic you can find sudden spurts of wild drawing cycling through cards, and they can become very hard to play a grind game against as cards are whittled away. Variance tames them from being the strongest character in the game, but they're terrifying to deal with regardless.

If you are sheriff and you have an offensive character next to you who do you fear the most? Out of all the offensive characters I rank suzy 2nd to last in terms of threat level w/ rose being last. Jesse, Slab, Willy, Kit, Janet (both), & blackjack rank above suzy.

I get Suzy is fun when you get volcanic but she doesn't belong anywhere near the top tier. There are only 2 volcanics in the deck (2.5%) & sure you can add the possibility of panic a neighbor but a good player can simply not play a volcanic next to suzy and give her that opportunity. Even if you get volcanic you have to dodge 14 misses to keep the run going, 8 guns, duels give immediate damage, saloon helps everyone as well as general store, & you have to dodge any cards you may have in front of you. You also then only have 1 card now which ppl in this thread are bashing willy for his ability of running through cards but suzy is defenseless against duels and indians herself unlike willy who can at least save 1 even after attacking someone multiple times.

You're also giving Pedro too little credit, their cycling tricks are annoying. The discard can very easily have a real card, the ability to know that at the start of your turn is nifty, though a wary opponent can help mitigate that. A clever teammate can support it on the same note though.

Paul, Sam, and Duke I'd probably put in the same tier as Willy, they all have their ups and downs vs each other. Pedro's occasionally invincible stonewall, Sam's ability to make themselves a magnet for danger, especially in developed games, can support the team rather nicely, and Duke being the second-best wielder of Dynamite alongside defensive tricks with Barrel/Jail are nifty too. Willy comes with a nice one-shot package if you hold it in right, though people have a bit too much paranoia about the character that likely hurts them a bit in this political game.

I can't rank anyone w/ an inconsistent ability over someone who has a consistent one. It's most likely impossible to use suzy's ability until several turns into the game. Then once the opportunity arises you now are left with one card. Pedro's ability is dependent on seating arrangement. If his ally isn't in front of him to feed him good cards then his only use is hoping he can get a jail card to do jail loop. What ppl don't realize though is that all you have to do is attacked pedro when he does jail loop because then he probably isnt picking up any good cards and will have to stop picking up the jail. So pedro needs the seating arrangement to be in his favor and in addition must have a good partner or bad enemies. Sam's ability isn't consistent. Duke is very bad. As sheriff he doesn't even have the ability to escape jail. The odds of him remaining in jail are still high (Ive played games in which i was jailed 3 straight turns and couldnt escape) and if he's lucky enough to get a barrel then he's like jour but still a good chance of the barrel not working. I've even seen duke get blown up by dynamite although I know that is rare

Now lets talk about Paul. Ranking willy w/ paul is just so disrespectful Paul is ridiculously bad. His whole gimmick of "you cant touch me" isnt worth having 3 bullets. This means he's less likely to protect himself from duels, indians, & gatlin. Like 25% of cards still touch Paul (including guns) so on average to start the game everyone should have about 1 card that can touch paul. In addition to that there are two characters (rose & Jesse) that directly counter his ability (yes jesse is a pain for everyone but even more so for the 3 card players).

NOt only is he bad for sheriff, but ALWYS a target wiht slab and jesse at start of game. Willy vice tends to gret jailed by sheriff before he can show his loyalty

& do you know why he is a target? Because he has a powerful ability! You can't say he is a weak character for being a target because he has a strong ability. That isn't how strength evaluation works. I understand wanting to pick a less threatening character depending on role and seat position but the fact that ppl are more inclined to target a stronger character can't be accounted for in the ranking of their abilities.

As one said willys power is basically draining cards. his chance of doing a runthrough is like kit blowing someone up.

Kit has a pretty decent chance of blowing someone up. 12.5% chance for each card (if not considering what cards have already been distributed)

[Ceaseless]

As for ranking. Kit is probably the most dangerous character to have next to you, though fortunately Kit has a higher skill ceiling than most characters since their ability has to account for more specific information, and also the full capacity for Kit to ruin a specific player is being right before them, though the deck stacking increasing Kit's card quality remains dangerous. Jesse is next, though way more flexible, them being next to you is actually a good thing since you can attack back, they are scarier if they're out of your range, similar to Rose. Suzy or Slab are probably next on my fear list. Slab is a more relentless killer, but Suzy is probably the most terrifying ceiling of any character. Without Volcanic, still a character I don't want to grind game against, but the longer I wait the more likely they'll pull something ridiculous. Black Jack is next, that potential extra card can get irksome. What I lack in fear of Janet as an aggro player I make up for with fear as an overall beast, I might rank them above Black Jack as an overall character even if I rank them lower in aggro. Willythekid has a potential one shot gimmick, which requires they ether have a god hand with me having little defense, or proper team support. Since a proper player should make sure They're not throwing the game away getting into a grind game with me all by themselves, a lot of that early one shot fear can go down. They can make an occasional one shot win, but frankly I'd expect it's more likely they end up shooting their team in the foot and losing a winnable game instead if they go too soon.

I might be willing to revise this list and say Willy is a bit more worrying to have next to you than Janet early on as an attacking character, with the similar caveat that I find Janet a much better character and more worrying to have as a threat in general. It's just that Janet shines due to their defensive skills making them far better, especially in 1 on 1s. If I saw Willythekid taking on Bart, Jourd, or Sid in a 1 v 1, I would say they'd more likely lose, while Janet would be favored to win if they played properly.

[ChiefPointThief]

When I mentioned Suzy being vulnerable to duels and Indians I was referring to when they only have 1 card. It would make no sense to hold onto a bang if she had volcanic.

Saloon/general store. Also referring to them having 1 card and actively attacking someone. Saloon is a wash & there’s a good chance opponent can pick up a card to counter whatever card Suzy picks up in general store (although not always). Depending on seating arrangement Suzy may be giving multiple cards to her enemies and yes these two cards are the same for everyone but they don’t have to be played by everyone. Once again this is all referring to Suzy being able to use her ability.

So even when Suzy is at her best (w/ volcanic no misses) it’s still a roll of the dice. I’ve been in this position more times than not and immediately get a missed or a gun. Now if you play 3 or 4 cards & aren’t able to extend your turn past what was in your hand to start you are just a sitting duck w/ 1 useless card in hand. The inconsistency is unattractive to me in terms of picking a reliable top tier player. But if you want to cross your fingers and hope for a fun ride I understand picking Suzy.

Also was talking about guns being not great when she has volcanic because replacing volcanic now makes bangs no good which there are 25 of in deck. That is another thing Suzy really isn’t the ridiculous Suzy you are mentioning without the volcanic. Bangs and misses make up half the deck.

You are right about Pedro ability when like dynamite is in the game. Which I forgot to add but still this is inconsistent & you have to rely on a circumstance.

[Ceaseless]

When I mentioned Suzy being vulnerable to duels and Indians I was referring to when they only have 1 card. It would make no sense to hold onto a bang if she had volcanic.

Saloon/general store. Also referring to them having 1 card and actively attacking someone. Saloon is a wash & there’s a good chance opponent can pick up a card to counter whatever card Suzy picks up in general store (although not always). Depending on seating arrangement Suzy may be giving multiple cards to her enemies and yes these two cards are the same for everyone but they don’t have to be played by everyone. Once again this is all referring to Suzy being able to use her ability.

So even when Suzy is at her best (w/ volcanic no misses) it’s still a roll of the dice. I’ve been in this position more times than not and immediately get a missed or a gun. Now if you play 3 or 4 cards & aren’t able to extend your turn past what was in your hand to start you are just a sitting duck w/ 1 useless card in hand. The inconsistency is unattractive to me in terms of picking a reliable top tier player. But if you want to cross your fingers and hope for a fun ride I understand picking Suzy.

Also was talking about guns being not great when she has volcanic because replacing volcanic now makes bangs no good which there are 25 of in deck. That is another thing Suzy really isn’t the ridiculous Suzy you are mentioning without the volcanic. Bangs and misses make up half the deck.

You are right about Pedro ability when like dynamite is in the game. Which I forgot to add but still this is inconsistent & you have to rely on a circumstance.

Everything in this game comes down to a roll of the dice. You can't play this game without risk of something going wrong. Bad cards, bad players, etc.

Your fears for Suzy with Volcanic regarding Saloon/General Store are far worse for a character who has to use them as real cards and not freebies they cycle through. Both of them get the edge of getting the best out of general store, but if Willy had to grab a bang to an opposing missed they lose out, while Suzy got to draw one extra card on top of that to keep going. Suzy's first wave of shots with Volcanic is like what Willy does, then the topdecking stream is the additional follow-up after a Willythekid styled offensive as opposed to no longer having an attack. Sometimes the second wave stumbles, sometimes it gives noticeable advantage, and sometimes entire players die in the middle of it. Once it runs out Suzy goes back to normal for the time being, sometimes a bit cluttered, but never empty handed.

Suzy without Volcanic is still a brutal character. Suzy with Volcanic is the best character in the game. That doesn't mean they're perfect or uncounterable, nothing is without answers, it just means they're ahead of everything else on average. The guns are annoying for disabling it, you don't usually want to play them unless you need range or if continuing the draws is that important. If you can't play it you wait and bluff it being a missed to cycle while waiting for hand size discard or even the hope an opponent will steal your one card thinking it's missed in order to ensure they can shoot you without a free block (a common concept when trying to make the breakthrough against Suzy since Missed is of higher quantity than other cards that make Suzy stop).

That's the thing about Suzy and missed. Suzy's missed are rather good, as they can turn into free defense in the grind game. The only reason Suzy frowns at missed is because proactively going empty handed is even better than reactively doing it. It's not a statement on how weak Suzy is with missed as it is how strong Suzy gets without it. Your average character is scared someone will shoot through their supply of missed, and thrilled if someone decides it's not worth the effort to grind them down. Suzy is looking forward to them trying, or in other words, the best-case scenario for other characters is Suzy's floor in that scenario. This is also a weapon for Suzy to bluff bad hands. No one else knows if Suzy is holding garbage or is actually begging for someone attack them so they can use their stuff.

If Suzy was really afraid of retribution afterwards they could have chosen to wait for their Volcanic attack a little longer. Your talk about Suzy not getting enough bang condemns Willy's chances far more, considering Willy has to do all of that with their bang without the opportunity to keep on drawing. Though in their defense Volcanic's offense may serve as good a shield as any between the chances of wiping out the opponent, drawing good defensive cards to place in front of them, or even ending on a draw spell that drew into bang plus a stopping card, to address the chance of holding bang even after a Volcanic spree. That's where Suzy and Volcanic become the best. Sure, things can clog, but there also comes times where Suzy blinks and an opponent disappears. Unlike characters that play fair bang and would often be out of juice under such ideal circumstances, Suzy doesn't run out of steam.

Willythekid can't shoot more bang than what a normal player actually has. They can't draw more cards like Suzy, Bart, or Blackjack for a quantity advantage. They can't create card advantage with removal like Jesse, or convert Missed to Bang like Janet. They can't rig the deck like Kit or give practical advantage to their Bangs over Missed like Slab. All they can do is remove the tempo factor so that if they overdraw bang they can convert the time problems for any other character's attack plan into an all-out assault. If their hand isn't the correct distribution of Bang it fizzles out. If their opponent isn't lacking in defense, you just end up playing the grind game faster than usual.

Everyone is rolling the dice, even in their best-case scenarios. Suzy is no different from anyone else in this regard. Without Volcanic Suzy has plenty of chances to gain card advantage beyond your conventional player, Volcanic only enhances the absurdity. Sometimes those chances are going to flop. I'll take them over the chances of Willy being able to get somewhere. Even Suzy playing a conventional bang/missed grind is a Suzy that doesn't fear their opponent will make them run out, since any grind to an empty hand just lets them pop a free card. A lot of the awkward cases for Suzy aren't even "Suzy is now bad" it's "Suzy is less absurd than before".

[ChiefPointThief]

Suzy's first wave of shots with Volcanic is like what Willy does

Except willy can use this ability immediately, doesn't need 1of2 cards to use this ability, & has the capability of using this ability on anyone at the table (w/ guns) all things suzy doesnt. In addition opponents can steal this ability from suzy (panic) and use it back on her. Willy can simply dispose of any volcanics.

Everything in this game comes down to a roll of the dice.

The top tier characters ability are pretty consistent. Slab shot is always effective, Jesse can always steal a card, sid can always heal himself, & willy always has an active volcanic. Can you have a game in which you don't draw great cards w/ kit, Bart getting no beers and all bangs, blackjack not drawing red on the 2nd card, or janet getting a hand full of guns and dynamite? Yes this happens but for the most part these characters abilities hold up & are far more consistent then suzy.

Suzy without Volcanic is still a brutal character.

We agree to disagree here. I easily have all the characters I just listed above suzy. If you remove the volcanics from the game suzy is bottom tier. At the highest low mid tier.

Back to what gnoochhi mentioned. If Suzy got the Willy/slab (top tier offensive characters) treatment then she would never even get the chance to use her ability. Ppl typically use their energy to focus on the major threats which is what allows suzy time in the first place. If she outlast a strong character for this reason that doesn't make her stronger than them.

Willy is the kamikaze pilot go all out and then die for the team. NOt only is he bad for sheriff

Sheriff thing depends on player count and that is the same with all players with no defense. If the game is in favor of law then willy isn't bad at all. If you take a 5p game willy starts the game with 7 cards in addition to that on average there will be 1-2 general stores available. So by the time Willy takes his 2nd turn (9-11 cards) he already has the arsenal to eliminate any foe. You guys are saying he drains cards but he gets 3 cards back for killing an outlaw. Meanwhile Suzy's issue with being able to use her ability is even worse as sheriff with the additional card.

[Ceaseless]

Suzy's first wave of shots with Volcanic is like what Willy does

Except willy can use this ability immediately, doesn't need 1of2 cards to use this ability, & has the capability of using this ability on anyone at the table (w/ guns) all things suzy doesnt. In addition opponents can steal this ability from suzy (panic) and use it back on her. Willy can simply dispose of any volcanics.

Everything in this game comes down to a roll of the dice.

The top tier characters ability are pretty consistent. Slab shot is always effective, Jesse can always steal a card, sid can always heal himself, & willy always has an active volcanic. Can you have a game in which you don't draw great cards w/ kit, Bart getting no beers and all bangs, blackjack not drawing red on the 2nd card, or janet getting a hand full of guns and dynamite? Yes this happens but for the most part these characters abilities hold up & are far more consistent then suzy.

Suzy without Volcanic is still a brutal character.

We agree to disagree here. I easily have all the characters I just listed above suzy. If you remove the volcanics from the game suzy is bottom tier. At the highest low mid tier.

Back to what gnoochhi mentioned. If Suzy got the Willy/slab (top tier offensive characters) treatment then she would never even get the chance to use her ability. Ppl typically use their energy to focus on the major threats which is what allows suzy time in the first place. If she outlast a strong character for this reason that doesn't make her stronger than them.

Willy is the kamikaze pilot go all out and then die for the team. NOt only is he bad for sheriff

Sheriff thing depends on player count and that is the same with all players with no defense. If the game is in favor of law then willy isn't bad at all. If you take a 5p game willy starts the game with 7 cards in addition to that on average there will be 1-2 general stores available. So by the time Willy takes his 2nd turn (9-11 cards) he already has the arsenal to eliminate any foe. You guys are saying he drains cards but he gets 3 cards back for killing an outlaw. Meanwhile Suzy's issue with being able to use her ability is even worse as sheriff with the additional card.

Yes, Willythekid can use this ability immediately and it can't be taken, those are valid edges for them. You had an argument regarding the scenario of Suzy having Volcanic, so my statements responding to that were made with that intention of yours in mind. It is nice that Suzy's ability isn't something covered by any drawable cards though, so there's no worry about cards having redundancy with Suzy's effect.

If you disagree with me on how good Suzy is I suppose that's for you to deal with. Players disagreeing on how to best play a game is the backbone of what makes it fun after all. As for rankings, offhand I'd tentatively place Suzy fourth. Roughly speaking Kit would be first, with Jesse in the same tier but second. Slab would be in a tier beneath them at third, with Suzy is the same tier as Slab at fourth. This is Suzy as a character, not assuming they have Volcanic.

As for consistency, saying Willy always has Volcanic isn't any different than saying Suzy will always have card(s) in their hand. In that sense both abilities always exist. Frankly, always having cards is a more consistently useful than an ability that requires multiple bang to be ready to fire in order to be useful in my eyes.

Will having these 9-11 cards does not always mean they have enough to wipe out a player. Those cards require drawing sufficient attack cards, and other players have cards too. We haven't even counted any losses from interaction. Willy's weakness to their own duels (where using it on an opponent can actually backfire since it allows an opponent to partially turn into Janet) does them no favors either. They need not only enough attack cards to kill a player, but to also burn through any defenses (Mustang/Barrel, Missed, Beer, etc.) on top of that. The ~6-8 cards other players have (they get general boosts too) will give resistance. Drawing 3 for killing an outlaw requires actually landing the finishing blow and correctly calling a player an outlaw. I don't think Willy is the worst sheriff, but they should be more passive than what I'm interpreting your statements as implying. Willy is best when they don't play much at all, frankly.

Suzy is actually the opposite. While Willy is bad at actually fighting other characters, Suzy is very good at it. Every bang met with a missed makes Willy wince and Suzy grin. Willy is vulnerable to being attacked or interacted with in general, while for Suzy such exchanges are opportunities to reduce their hand size to create further resources. Hating out on Suzy, who can take advantage of having fewer cards, is much harder to do than disrupting Willythekid, who needs a lot of cards to even be considered a real threat. In other words, Suzy loves a fight, while Willy wants to do everything in their power to avoid one, specializing in aiming for the end of a conflict right as it begins.