Ban Sponsors #2 from arena

[darreljnz]

Can we please ban Sponsors 2 (aka money sponsors) from arena? The win rates must be soaring. The fact you can Sponsors II at 1 strength to get 7 money is so over-powered. At very least a nerf to money gained (maybe 2 and 3 instead of 3 and 5?).

[yazavats]

I think everyone's in agreement it's the strongest action card by a large margin and an insta pick outside of maybe getting build 4 on outdoor areas. Even than you don't like passing it up cause it's got so much potential upside when upgraded. Current considerations for balancing the action cards is to have the same set for everyone or to have no unique action cards. Of the two, I favor the former cause I don't like stripping away gameplay features. As for your suggestion, I would rather that the card gets nerfed or substituted with a different concept, but that would still leave other action card imbalances unresolved

Here's the link where you can vote on the balance suggestion: https://boardgamearena.com/bug?id=149765

[werfmark]

I don't think it's strongest by a large margin.

I do think the action card draft sucks.

Mostly because there are a bunch of solid to great action cards with sponsors #2 one of them but depending on the map a bunch of others which are better.

The big problem is that there are just a whole bunch of them which are nearly useless which feels stupid so you often have games where only players has 1-2 good ones while the other has 0-1 good ones. Some imbalance amongst them is not a big deal I find, it's just another random factor just like opening hand etc is. Just make the useless ones like some of the association ones better.

[yazavats]

Mostly because there are a bunch of solid to great action cards with sponsors #2 one of them but depending on the map a bunch of others which are better.

Question then, which do you consider better that you would pick over money sponsors with the little info you get (map, player order, base projects, and track rewards)? As I've said, build 4 (build over rock and water) on outdoor areas is the only one where I might pass on it, and even then I'd think of it as an even trade. Other action cards might work out well depending on how the game develops, but none has as much potential in a vacuum as money sponsors. It's a justified insta keep in every scenario, I don't think you can say that for any other action card.

The big problem is that there are just a whole bunch of them which are nearly useless which feels stupid so you often have games where only players has 1-2 good ones while the other has 0-1 good ones. Some imbalance amongst them is not a big deal I find, it's just another random factor just like opening hand etc is. Just make the useless ones like some of the association ones better.

Changing/rebalancing the action cards would require approval from the creator, which I think is unlikely unless they're going to do the work themselves. Which is why I support the idea of mirrored action cards module for balance. It still requires approval from the creator, but it's less of a reach.

[urnotwrong]

I think the Cards one that allows you to dig is pretty powerful. I'm still taking the Sponsors money over it, but it's prob my 2nd fav along with building over rocks/water

[Propaganda Panda]

Money sponsors is very strong indeed. Most players (including top players like JD and Sam/sorryimlikethis) consider it the best by far, like yazavats said.

Personally, I don't find it the best. It's S-tier for sure, but I actually prefer snap/marketing sponsors (Sponsors 4) and discount/appeal animals (Animals 3).

[Monkeyunit]

I agree money sponsor is overrated.
While it can be great if you have good ways to generate money with sponsors, it's just slow if you are playing suboptimal cards with just for money.
Like other cards that can give a huge money/income lead the opponent can play around it by breaking heavily before you get to spend it.

[werfmark]

Mostly because there are a bunch of solid to great action cards with sponsors #2 one of them but depending on the map a bunch of others which are better.

Question then, which do you consider better that you would pick over money sponsors with the little info you get (map, player order, base projects, and track rewards)? As I've said, build 4 (build over rock and water) on outdoor areas is the only one where I might pass on it, and even then I'd think of it as an even trade. Other action cards might work out well depending on how the game develops, but none has as much potential in a vacuum as money sponsors. It's a justified insta keep in every scenario, I don't think you can say that for any other action card.

Research station and outdoor areas I find the rocks/water build potentially better. Discount/points animals is also close.

I think the money sponsors is getting a little overrated on many maps. Thing is many maps don't feature money on the map or not in spots you take early so often you have the conundrum of wanting to play sponsors but not getting extra money as not that many sponsors actually give money themselves. Discount/points animals just always gives you good value.
Also all the sponsors action cards are pretty solid I think so if you take money sponsors you're more likely to have your second action be shit. For example if you have money sponsors, another decent sponsors card and discount/appeal animals first pick i would pick the animals card to make sure you have 2 good cards.

On commercial harbor some other cards like hunt animals or no discard cards also become great, rivaling money sponsors imo. For example money sponsors gives 3 money typically, no discard cards or hunt animals also give 3 money on that map usually. Both have some restrictions but especially hunt animals is S-tier on that map I think.

Overall I don't think money sponsors is so much the problem but rather the bunch of neigh useless action cards. I rather have two solid action cards than money sponsors and one of the dud ones.

Mirror draft is a potential solution but not very exciting. Rather see the action cards balanced in some way and just like the maps I think that could be done for BGA / Arena only. Some small tweaks would go a long way and are easy to implement.

[yazavats]

If it's not as OP as I think, that's a good thing. I'm not convinced by your arguments that it's not the strongest action card though. I know the counterplay is to break hard and cross fast, I've employed it myself. Crossing fast is a counterplay to everything though, that's just playing well. I think the action card strength should be rated on how universally good they are as opposed to situationally. Even generally bad cards have a chance to synergize well. Discount/appeal animals, digging cards, pavilion build and so on have universal strength in various amounts. I think money sponsors sits at the top of that list. We'll collectively know more with time. I support the idea of tinkering with the action cards, like how we got alt maps. It requires more play testing though, and any asymmetry is inherently more unbalanced than symmetry. I think mirrored cards is a more immediate solution, and at the very least a stand in for future rebalancing.

[tobyskov]

I agree - I've both had it myself and faced it my last couple of games and there is no denying that it is gamebreaking. It almost trivializes income, it makes certain sponsor cards (e.g. science library, hydrologist, geologist, explorer) incredibly strong.

It's incredibly frustrating to play against - I realize that breaking often is how to counter it but I find myself in situations where it also hurts me sufficiently to break at critical times to make me not do that, just so that their randomly-given god powers are not as effective.