How to win

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Ceaseless
Posts: 1303
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: How to win

Post by Ceaseless »

FrankJones wrote: 17 May 2025, 00:39
kfernstrom wrote: 16 May 2025, 20:30

I play two-player and am pretty good at it, I have a few suggestions.

This does help, thank you :)

That is pretty much how I play 2-player, and I thought it was the optimal way to play. I similarly say to myself, "That can't possibly win" when I see my opponent doing some of the things you described that make you say to yourself that you are almost certain to win the game.

And yet, I have struggled recently, and I have had some tough losses against players who did not go for nobles at all, and won by getting 4 scoring cards from the 2nd and 3rd rows.

Maybe I did not read the board well enough. In at least one loss, I just could not get a noble because the deck just wouldn't put out the one card I needed, literally any card of one color type. But, I put myself in that position, assuming one would get turned over at some point.

If that happens once, I can chalk it up to bad luck, but multiple times makes me think I am not recognizing when it is happening soon enough to pivot to something else.

I think, in another game, my opponent reserved 3 bottom row cards (Each costing 3 tokens to buy). This ended up working, because the remaining bottom-row cards all cost 5 tokens. So, after drawing 3 tokens 3 times, there was nothing but trash available, and thins quickly went sideways for me.

I was very close to 300 Elo when I was at 20 games played. I didn't realize the k-factor of 40 is in place for the 21st game and does not change to the standard 20-factor until after the completion of the 21st game. As a result, I lost 28 Elo in my 21st game. Whoops.

In any player count, but maybe especially 2-player, it's possible for a frustrating sequence where every card bought (often at a good price) results in a free or 1-coin card popping up for the opponent. If that happens a bunch of ties in a row, it can be difficult to deal with.

Are 2-player games more prone to unlucky sequences than 3- or 4-player?

The ratings of the highest rated players in this game lead me to believe that the strongest players mitigate bad luck and makes me think I am at fault for all my losses, especially sine I am not playing players rated over 300.
There's some luck involved, but not so much that you can't find a way to beat these players or make it much harder for them to find a win.
Sure, there's a stage in the game where cards become free for the opponent to buy with ease, but the same should go for you too. At some point, a player is eventually going to get to 15 and you can't stop it. What you can do is get there first. Do you have an example of a game where you thought things were truly out of your control?

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=673072335 This was the 28 point loss you mentioned. You had an amazing first turn advantage, a cheap white (which has a passable color density and a spare noble) card to buy early while maintaining a hold on the power color green (another spare noble and thicker color density.) Your opponent yielded green for no reason and gave you free reign over the board. If you were planning on buying the white and black card at the start you may as well have bought the black first to use as a bonus for the white. However, if your plan was to fight for the greens, then on move 10 you may as well have reserved the green 2 pointer. As your opponent was already at 10 tokens, they would either have to sacrifice another token on their next turn or buy something for green, letting you grab the 5th green token and buy the 2 pointer for green. Instead, you end up giving up your greens, and then even gave them a turn to buy the green card that popped up later.

Your reservation of the blue token move 16 is an odd one, the card is not that good and redundant, given the 2 point version higher up the opponent has likely been planning to buy anyways. Your buying of the white token move 21 isn't essential either, you have time to buy another blue to make it cheaper, not to mention taking away the black token your opponent fortunately ignored. You buy a blue from hand using gold when nothing was stopping you from picking up tokens to get it later or even just buying the cheaper blue on the field. You show no fear to their actual attack on the precious green, letting them buy a 1 pointer, 2 pointer, and 4 pointer unopposed and instead try using your reservations on cards that you might try to buy in several turns. This was a color vein that you should have had control over but instead completely surrendered to them. You do some strange late game defense reservation when their attack lines were too varied for it to matter and had already lost.

Threat identification is important. If you give too many cards the value of essential threat you make your opponent seem invincible and fall so far behind defending that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. After all, reserving means you only get 1 token for the turn as opposed to 3. If you keep reserving, you end up with fewer tokens than they do. So when you reserve you better make sure the cards you're securing are worth the cost. If there really are so many good attack lines you may even want to consider just using yourself and aiming to score faster than they can.
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: How to win

Post by FrankJones »

Ceaseless wrote: 17 May 2025, 14:59

There's some luck involved, but not so much that you can't find a way to beat these players or make it much harder for them to find a win.
Sure, there's a stage in the game where cards become free for the opponent to buy with ease, but the same should go for you too. At some point, a player is eventually going to get to 15 and you can't stop it. What you can do is get there first. Do you have an example of a game where you thought things were truly out of your control?

https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=673072335 This was the 28 point loss you mentioned.
Thank you for this thorough analysis. (I just woke up, and I have not read it while reviewing the game yet, but I will, very carefully. When good players volunteer their time to review one of my games, I will not let that effort go to waste :) ). I did glance through your post, intentionally not really committing any of it to memory... yet. (I'll explain later)

I cannot give you an example of a game that I thought was truly out of my control, because I know I made serious errors in all my losses. Especially the game you posted this analysis for. As the game was happening, I said to myself, "What am I doing?? I am handing this game away!"

I don't know just yet whether I was making hasty careless moves, not looking at the board, making moves while very tired (Lame excuse, but I am dealing with a lot of level-10 stressors right now, and not sleeping well at all, or eating well, etc.), or whether I am just flat-out bad at this game.

I do consider myself a strong gamer in general, and I certainly have a lot of splendor experience, so, any combination of those reasons are possible, including that Splendor just isn't one of my strong games. But for the most part, the necessary information in Splendor is visible, so I want to figure out why I am giving away wins. No disrespect to any of my opponents, including the one in that game, but I should have won that game.

And all the stressors I mentioned haven't prevented me from playing most of my other games at a high-level (in some cases) or at least a strong level (in the games I think of myself as "strong" but not "expert").

What I intend to do is review this game again, writing a list of errors that I see, BEFORE I thoroughly analyze your post. Then I will thoroughly analyze your post and try to see how close I came to finding what you found.

If I still miss the same things I missed the first time, then I will know I need to make a serious reassessment of my skill at this game and my overall strategy and approach.

Thank you in advance for all the help - I get frustrated when I see people ask for help in a post, then disappear and never respond even after one or more people put in a lot of their own time to write analysis. I will not be one of those people.

:)

(In one very frustrating loss - frustrating because of my own ineptitude, I lost on rebuttal to a tiebreaker after drawing tokens and then buying my "winning card". I reviewed the final 2 moves and saw that I could have BOUGHT a 2-point card that would have given me the same purchasing power as the tokens I drew! That would have been 2 more points, and an irrelevant tiebreaker. WORSE - the card my opponent bought to make the tie and win... was the SAME CARD I should have bought. I remember as soon as I realized this I said to myself, "You didn't even look at the board to see whether you could buy a card instead of drawing tokens." There are few things I berate myself less for than throwing away a visible win on the last turn or second-to-last turn. )
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kfernstrom
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Joined: 24 April 2020, 16:01

Re: How to win

Post by kfernstrom »

The analysis by ceaseless is very good; I didn't rewatch the whole game but I saw a little bit. Reserving the row 1 blue card also baffled me; there were no nobles with blue and none of the 2nd or 3rd row cards particularly needed blue. Don't get too hung up on the opp sometimes getting a cheap card, if you reserve it he just moves on to plan b and you are totally off your game.

I should have added that to my first post - if my opp reserves 7 or 8 cards during a game I feel very good about my chances. In my experience the top experts reserve cards 90% for offense, and save defense for later in the game if there is a card I absolutely have to have.
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: How to win

Post by FrankJones »

Okay, my analysis:

Turns 1-3 Draw tokens. Fine.
4. Buy the crystal card. Fine. Opponent draws 3, returns 1. I do this ... never. (Well, if it is a necessary move for an imminent win, sure.)
5. Draw tokens. Fine. Opponent pays 5 tokens for a card. Rough start.
6. Buy the Onyx card. Fine. Opponent draws. Fine.
7. I draw tokens. Fine. Opponent buys a card for 4 tokens. I am "ahead" by 5 tokens.

At this point, one of several things happened:
1. I had a cerebral hemorrhage.
2. I fell asleep on the keyboard and accidentally landed on the mouse and made a bizarre series of moves.
3. I fell asleep and my cat started playing with the mouse.

Turn 8. WHAT THE ?? What function does this card serve ???Just buy the red card for 3 tokens! Let the opponent waste 2 onyx tokens on a meaningless Blue card.
turn 9. I buy the green card, giving up the precious joker token. BUY THE RED CARD! Opponent again pays 4 tokens for a card.
Turn 10. (I'm still ahead 4 tokens). I buy the Crystal card for 3 tokens. WHY? Cheaper cards were available. But, okay, I'm going hard after Crystal cards.

Turn 11. Now I cannot buy the 2-1-1-1 card because I lack the tokens. Terrible. So, I buy the other red. Opponent gets a cheap card. I have one more card and one less token. My lead is vanishing.
Turn 12. I spent all my blues, so I cannot get the one-token Crystal card. So, I reserve it ?? Opponent draws; my lead is gone.
Turn 13. I buy my blue, Giving up a useful Onyx and a precious joker. WHAT am I doing. Opponent draws. I would say, at this point, I have blown it.
Turn 14. I buy a free card; my opponent buys a 2-pointer, starting the march toward 15 point.
Turn 15. I reserve the important (I think?) Crystal card. Opponent buys another row 2 card; has 4 points.
Turn 16. I draw, opponent draws.
Turn 17. I buy the free crystal card from reserve. Opponent draws.
Turn 18. I buy the red card for one token. Opponent gets another point from row 2. Score is 5-0.
Turn 19. I buy the free red card. Opponent gets a cheap card.
Turn 20. I buy the free onyx card.

Okay, but, I now need Red, Onyx, and White to get the three royals, but that still gives me only 14 points (assuming I buy both my reserved cards), but more important, THERE IS NO ONYX CARD.

gg. It's over at this point. I didn't even bother watching the rest.

Okay, now I will see how this analysis compares to what the two helpful responses say.
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: How to win

Post by FrankJones »

Ceaseless wrote: 17 May 2025, 14:59
https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=673072335 This was the 28 point loss you mentioned. You had an amazing first turn advantage, a cheap white (which has a passable color density and a spare noble) card to buy early while maintaining a hold on the power color green (another spare noble and thicker color density.) Your opponent yielded green for no reason and gave you free reign over the board. If you were planning on buying the white and black card at the start you may as well have bought the black first to use as a bonus for the white. However, if your plan was to fight for the greens, then on move 10 you may as well have reserved the green 2 pointer. As your opponent was already at 10 tokens, they would either have to sacrifice another token on their next turn or buy something for green, letting you grab the 5th green token and buy the 2 pointer for green. Instead, you end up giving up your greens, and then even gave them a turn to buy the green card that popped up later.

Your reservation of the blue token move 16 is an odd one, the card is not that good and redundant, given the 2 point version higher up the opponent has likely been planning to buy anyways. Your buying of the white token move 21 isn't essential either, you have time to buy another blue to make it cheaper, not to mention taking away the black token your opponent fortunately ignored. You buy a blue from hand using gold when nothing was stopping you from picking up tokens to get it later or even just buying the cheaper blue on the field. You show no fear to their actual attack on the precious green, letting them buy a 1 pointer, 2 pointer, and 4 pointer unopposed and instead try using your reservations on cards that you might try to buy in several turns. This was a color vein that you should have had control over but instead completely surrendered to them. You do some strange late game defense reservation when their attack lines were too varied for it to matter and had already lost.

Threat identification is important. If you give too many cards the value of essential threat you make your opponent seem invincible and fall so far behind defending that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. After all, reserving means you only get 1 token for the turn as opposed to 3. If you keep reserving, you end up with fewer tokens than they do. So when you reserve you better make sure the cards you're securing are worth the cost. If there really are so many good attack lines you may even want to consider just using yourself and aiming to score faster than they can.
100% agreement on this analysis. I cannot even try to explain why I made those moves. It was painful to rewatch the game. (I just rewatched it all the way through.)
Every blunder you pointed out was a serious one, and obvious. I do not know what I was thinking. I paid no attention to what my opponent was doing.

The only lame explanation I can give is that after 7 turns each (I apologize for referring to "turns" that do not match the in-game "move number), right before I made that ridiculous reserve of the blue card, I may have stopped focusing, thinking my opponent could not possibly win with the inefficient moves I had seen thus far.

Foolish, careless, and just horribly played on my part. And though my opponent's moves were a bit odd, I give the opponent credit for the winning sequence, which I apparently was paying no attention to. The Green avalanche was happening, and I ignored it.

I hope I do not play like that in most of my games, otherwise I have no reason to even bet near 300. I'm back at 259 now.

I need to pay more attention. I need to pay attention to when to shift from "time to stop buying cheap or free cards" to "buy 2- or 3-point cards without minimal extra effort".
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: How to win

Post by FrankJones »

kfernstrom wrote: 17 May 2025, 19:25 The analysis by ceaseless is very good; I didn't rewatch the whole game but I saw a little bit. Reserving the row 1 blue card also baffled me; there were no nobles with blue and none of the 2nd or 3rd row cards particularly needed blue. Don't get too hung up on the opp sometimes getting a cheap card, if you reserve it he just moves on to plan b and you are totally off your game.

I should have added that to my first post - if my opp reserves 7 or 8 cards during a game I feel very good about my chances. In my experience the top experts reserve cards 90% for offense, and save defense for later in the game if there is a card I absolutely have to have.
Agreed. I have no reasonable explanation for this. This has to be the worst Splendor game I have ever played. I sure hope it is!

How many moves should I be aiming to end the game in, when playing 2-playwer with no expansions? Was going for both royals (Onyx-Crystal and Red-Crystal) a viable path, or should I have focused on only one of them and 12 points from cards? Given that I ended up with no 4th Onyx, I guess maybe that question answers itself.

Or I should have focused on The green red royal, given the high value cards that required Green. Why did I ignore Green ????

Why do I have a 6-3-3 token 4-point card in my reserve? 12 tokens for 4 points??? Right before the end of the game, I had a 6-3-3 blue card in reserve that costs 3 blue, and a 4Bl-1W-2G 2-point card in reserve, and I had ONE blue card and no blue tokens.

Terrible.

And this is TURN BASED. I have half a day to think about my moves!
Ceaseless
Posts: 1303
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: How to win

Post by Ceaseless »

FrankJones wrote: 17 May 2025, 22:06 How many moves should I be aiming to end the game in, when playing 2-playwer with no expansions? Was going for both royals (Onyx-Crystal and Red-Crystal) a viable path, or should I have focused on only one of them and 12 points from cards? Given that I ended up with no 4th Onyx, I guess maybe that question answers itself.

Or I should have focused on The green red royal, given the high value cards that required Green. Why did I ignore Green ????

Why do I have a 6-3-3 token 4-point card in my reserve? 12 tokens for 4 points??? Right before the end of the game, I had a 6-3-3 blue card in reserve that costs 3 blue, and a 4Bl-1W-2G 2-point card in reserve, and I had ONE blue card and no blue tokens.

Terrible.

And this is TURN BASED. I have half a day to think about my moves!
I don't tend to pay attention to how many turns the overall game is, I believe Splendor says it lasts in the mid 20s most of the time, but I'm not afraid of making a game drag if I need to gridlock the board to eke out the win. I usually am just trying to stay ahead of my opponent and make sure I finish first, and I don't tend to count out the turns mid game. Granted, I'm often blitzing my Splendor games to kill time, so I'm making my moves in a couple seconds, my general habits help me make reasonable enough moves. Maybe I'd change my mind if I was spending more time thinking, but I think you can do fine without needing to try counting the total turns.

Nobles can be awkward and slow. What makes them brutal is they theoretically cost nothing to acquire in tokens or even time, they just pop in as free points, but the more you dedicate yourself to getting them, the less those attributes shine through. Instead focus on getting good cards, and if you see a noble synergy emerge along the way feel free to grab it. I personally would have been looking to support green when I saw the chance because I wanted the good 2 pointers and 4 or 5 pointer rather than the noble. That also happens to be green's synergy into red. I wouldn't have expected to be able to go for the green/red noble early on due to a lack of green, but there's a chance I'd have picked it up upon seeing the greens pop up mid game. Alternatively, I might have ended up getting to 15 before I could finish the noble.

The other main route I pick up nobles for is when I get into token gridlock wars where both players are holding onto tokens for the big push, not ready to let the other player have them for their own finishing touches, and so little buyout wars happen below, as each players tries to get small advantages. Nobles can easily fall into place here. This is one of the main strategies where targeting nobles can work, but you have to know how to properly defend. Usually the noble base is a bit slow, but the sturdy base makes it effective if players are cutthroat with resources and hamper blitzing high efficiency cards. If they're not, someone can end up executing a combination that blitzes 15 before the noble strategy can get there.

The red 2 pointer (4 blue, 2 green, 1 white) you had in reserve was for defense rather than to buy tbf, you snatched it right before you saw your opponent ready to buy it. The 4 point blue (6 white etc...) was the weird one, you were getting close but I think misjudged your role as aggressor.
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: How to win

Post by FrankJones »

Ceaseless wrote: 19 May 2025, 04:41
FrankJones wrote: 17 May 2025, 22:06

I don't tend to pay attention to how many turns the overall game is, I believe Splendor says it lasts in the mid 20s most of the time, but I'm not afraid of making a game drag if I need to gridlock the board to eke out the win. I usually am just trying to stay ahead of my opponent and make sure I finish first, and I don't tend to count out the turns mid game. Granted, I'm often blitzing my Splendor games to kill time, so I'm making my moves in a couple seconds, my general habits help me make reasonable enough moves. Maybe I'd change my mind if I was spending more time thinking, but I think you can do fine without needing to try counting the total turns.

Nobles can be awkward and slow.
I am doing a better job here than in Wingspan.

After your advice I focused more on "how much point value am I gaining per token spent" and less on nobles. I have won 9 of 10 and I am over 300, finally.

I have usually had only one noble. I just got to 15 with no nobles, and on my next turn I could have bought another 3-point card that I had reserved. I only had 10 total cards on my tableau.

When I reserve a card, it is offense, not defense, as you suggested.

Sometimes my opponents automatically reserve whatever cad I am obviously about to buy. But usually that does not seem to work.
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