Butterflies are OP

[Leander Quest]

In the base game, butterflies were weak. It was all about deer and a wolf or 2...and amphibians were good, too.
Now butterflies are way too strong. Basically, you need to play them all the time.

In games with a friend, she always had 10-17 points per butterfly WITHOUT the set bonus. There are hedgehogs, birds and plants that give you 2 or even 3 points per butterly...and are cheap to play. Then there are plants that let you draw one card per butterfly played...

e.g. you have 3 plants that give you 3 points per butterfly, then a hedgehog, then 2 plants that let you draw 2 cards per butterfly played...

And don't forget fir tree (2 points per card) + nettle...place the fir tree, place the nettle under the tree, then stack all your butterflies on top the fir tree.

50% of the card are useless compared to former wolf + deer, amphibians, pigs and sqeakers...and now butterflies.

If you pull off 6+ butterflies every game in 3 back to back games...with set bonus, then 10-17 points for every butterfly with "draw a card" mechanic, it is boring.

I mean, everybody can play butterflies, but it is boring that you basically have to play them and cannot neglect them..as there are so many butterflies and cards that boost them.

PS We just started another game and with 90 cards to go, she already has the nettle under the fir and gets 10 points per butterfly without fir and butterfly set bonuses... 2 hedgehogs, 2 gentians.

Two more games:

Game 1: 17 points per butterfly, many butterflies + set bonus, total: 539 points

Game 2: 13 per butterfly + full set of butterflies = 55
2 gentians for 36 points each, fir: 30 points because of nettle and butterflies

Points total: 406

I mean...you can't do anything if a player draws butterflies, butterfly engine cards and gentians, hedgehogs etc...it's nice if you can pull off this combo once, but we played a total of 6 games and she had the same high-scoring butterflies in 4 of them. I also had fir + nettle etc., but my 8 points per butterfly can't do anything against her 17 points per butterfly + set bonus...

Game 3: not against me, but someone else. She got fir + nettle again (in back to back games), got 11 points per butterfly.

[Lord-Universe]

Dont you counterpick?
When you give your opponent all butterflies and all point cards of course they will win. But when you take those cards as well your opponent shouldnt be able to score 17 points per butterfly consistently. Of course sometimes you are unlucky, but i dont think that it is a problem that butterflies are stronger with expansions. I rather like it.
It makes the game more interesting to have more strategies available than just digging for deer and wolf.

[utharlepreux]

so butterflies are OP
wolf and dear too
and batracians too
birds are still worthy a try
sooooo many ways to win !!
enjoy

[The_Kerfuffle]

Agreed 100% - and it's an issue introduced with the Woodland Edge Expansion.

There's 4 butterfly shrubs + 2 mushrooms in the deck for free card draws. It's pretty easy to reliably get 1-2 cards per butterfly placed, which makes the action economy insane when the card cost is already 0. Couple it with not struggling for tree space once you find a stinging needle and you're just blazing through the deck.

Yes, you can counterpick, but that just means you also have to make a butterfly/bug engine too. There are too many butterfly cards in the deck to deny them the same way you could deny bats/squeakers/amphibians/etc.

Other engines CAN work, but are far less reliable by comparison. They don't get the free card draws as reliably + have costs to playing the cards themselves. I've been actively trying to use other engines but get forced into doing butterflies/bugs again. It's starting to make the game boring.

Not sure why the other replies are so snarky. Maybe they haven't played with the expansion enough to notice or are at an ELO where people aren't prioritizing it. The folks around 350+ know and 90% of the wins are from a butterfly engine (I'm around 500 at the time of writing).

[Lord-Universe]

I agree that the game becomes boring after a lot of plays. Once you figured out the best strategy you do always the same. Just looking for the good cards and throw the rest in the muck. But that is more the problem of the game. When you play without expansions it is boring too, because then it is only about deer and wolves. Just saying that I think it is nice to see something else getting played with the expansions.
But you are right. I dont have a ton of games under my belt with the woodland edge expansion. It is the first season i am playing with it.

[p99999]

To some extent these issues are reduced when you play both Alpine + Woodland Edge because the number of cards thrown away before the start makes it less certain what cards will be left in the pack.

[Helbiii]

They are OP but OP for both players.
Definetaly not boring.
Still not as op as fallow deers.
They are ways to accelerate the game when your opponent is starting an engine which is slow at first to set up.
And on a number of games you have same chances to draw good cards as your opponent, or you are doing something wrong like taking Colors from the middle rather than drawing from deck, or playing trees unsafely

[evogilda]

I just played with an opponent that played all cave bonuses and made a 32 cards in cave * 3... that was a strategy never seen. Once I lost with a real player that was just playing sycamores and Red deers and an infinity of small trees. Once I even lost with a maniac of european hares. The wonderful part of this game is that you must always understand what the hell is happening to do not let it happen.

[brh2113]

I think in base + Alpine, the balance is quite good: butterflies can be sometimes strong, but only if you get a couple critical pieces, and so they're generally not the main point system. I think problems only crop up once you add in Woodland Edge.

[thulcandrian22]

I own a physical copy of the game, and recently downloaded the official PnP solo version. For each game, you choose a specific challenge that you must complete in order to win. They include things like "have at least 4 bats," "have at least 1 bird on each tree," "at least 17 cards with 0 cost in your forest (without counting saplings)," etc., etc. There are 15 such challenges and more with the expansions.

I bring this up because on one level, it refutes the idea that some strategies are always more powerful; however, it also acknowledges that some are a bit more powerful than others. All 15 challenges require at least 300 points to beat on hard mode. However, some challenges (butterflies, insects, foxes and hares, and cloven hoofed animals) require 400 points to beat on hard mode. This seems to be an acknowledgement that some strategies do actually have a higher ceiling than others.