What could I have done better in this game?

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Florrible
Posts: 34
Joined: 23 December 2020, 12:54

What could I have done better in this game?

Post by Florrible »

After reading the thread from Archisian I have been trying to take this game more seriously, watched the recommended Youtube videos about best starting birds and changed my techniques. I started to always build my wetland first whenever possible, the forest when the wetland wasn't immediately possible, and always left the grassland for last.
I had a small winning streak but now I am back to losing.
I just played a game where I felt like I had good cards including my starting hand, but somehow I still lost badly.

If anyone has the time and patience to review it and point out my errors (politely) it's here: https://boardgamearena.com/12/wingspan?table=680520102
Andrei3009
Posts: 271
Joined: 16 November 2023, 21:55

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by Andrei3009 »

I've just started playing this game myself, and I want to see if my understanding matches up with experienced players. I apologize in advance for the language mistakes - my english grammar is bad

Game start: I would only leave Greeb in my hand and discard roden and hoped to draw more good birds,but i might be worth it for EOR. And i would've taker other bonus card

For the first three actions, I would have played Greeb using fish, laid the eggs and draw birds. Ideally, draw Wilson snipe and find good forest birds, but the Wren is not bad either.

move 1: I would've played Kingbird in wetland and follow draw birds plan .You can play it in forest too, but definitely not in grassland.

move 3: You should lay eggs before draw to get 1 more card. And in my opinion Wren is better, then Swift

move 5: you ignored Wren again as a result in move 7 you take 1 food whish is ineffective

move 9: you skip American redstart - one of the best forest birds

move 12: if you want to draw birds better to do it before playing Towhee in move 11. But i think you don't need than many cards

move 18: you definitely don't need more card's there

move 20: In that stage you should start counting how match egg spaces you have 27 and lay 6-7 egg per activation so you deen 4 grassland activations. So there is no need to take roden , you should reroll for grain , play pointed Bunting and activate grassland 4 fimes.

move 21: you played hawk for you bonus card, but i wound've to ignore it (see move 20 explanations)

Main points:
1) don't draw too mutch cards
2) it last 2 round start planning how you spend your moves to maximaze grassland
3) don't focus to mutch of bonus card's
Last edited by Andrei3009 on 30 May 2025, 10:28, edited 1 time in total.
FrankJones
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Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by FrankJones »

Well for starters -

I am 30 seconds into the replay, and you placed the Kingbird in the grassland.
That doesn't exactly line up with your statement that you are focusing on your forest and leaving the grassland for last.
Now you still need 2 more forest birds to be able to have the ideal "gain 2 food" without having to spend a card for that second food. And when you eventually get around to laying eggs for points, you have a dead spot in your grassland.

Then you drew the Vaux's swift, only to discard it in the same turn, which doesn't make much sense. It's not a great bird, but it's better than the northern cardinal.

I agree with Andrei3009; I'm probably talking the other bonus card. Birds with flock abilities are generally good birds to play, and 2 points per such bird gives you a good return without much difficulty. The bonus card for platform birds could end up being 0 points or compel you to play mediocre birds.

Also, as Andrei3009 notes, I am laying eggs before drawing birds, even with the Pied-billed Grebe.

Also, the Kingbird is not a great bird in a 2-player game. It might trigger only twice. I don't hate it, since it gives you a bird for the End-round goal, and it advanced your forest, but it might be better to keep only the Grebe and keep an extra food. (Also said by Andrei3009).

The odd start immediately proves costly, as 2 good birds appear in the tray after your draw cards action.

The Tree Swallow is a good bird. 3 points and a tuck-and-draw. And, you are completely ignoring your forest. All you have for food is 2 worms, and there's the Carolina Wren, which can be played using only half your food supply while getting you two more bird cards. It's not a great bird, but you need to put something in your forest, and the Northern cardinal isn't the answer. What's your plan to get a cherry to play that bird?

I am mostly repeating what ANdrei3009 said. The American redstart is an excellent bird. You drew 6 cards, but didn't take the redstart. And in the previous round, the Common Grackle, an excellent bird, was available. Your wetland is redundant now with an excessive number of card draws. I'd much rather have had the Tree Swallow than a second "draw 2 keep 1". The Tree Swallow is 2 more points, and gives you a point every time you activate your wetland. Your only way to convert extra cards into points is the Overpriced Dickcissel, and you are going to struggle to get the food for it because you have ignored your forest and ignored the American Redstart.

You need to have a plan in this game. "I'm going to do this, then this, then this."

The Northern Flicker and the Spotted Towhee sets up your forest, but then you drew more birds. You already have plenty of playable birds, including 2 that you drew face-up and have not yet played. You're drawing too many cards. Your focus should have been on getting the Dickcissel and the Scaled Quail in play and laying eggs for the end-round goal. You didn't need to draw more cards until round 3, when new and better cards might be in the tray.


Move 107/108 is a major blunder. You have the food to play the fish crow. Play it. Then use it to get back the fish to play the Bittern, while laying 6 eggs and getting a tuck. Notice that this still leaves you with zero points on your bonus card unless you play an inefficient bird for zero or minimal points. Meanwhile, there have been numerous excellent flock birds making an appearance in the tray. The choice of starting bonus card put in you a bad spot.

Playing the nearly worthless red-shouldered Hawk allowed your opponent to tie you on the end-round goal that should have been yours by playing the Fish Crow in the grassland.

The start of round 4 was very costly. You could have played the 6-point Fish Crow, meeting your bonus card with 4 platform nests, and then activated your grassland 4 times, laying 4 eggs each time. Instead, you laid eggs with only 3 birds there, and then played the inefficient (at this stage of the game) American coot to meet your bonus, when you will not ever be activating the bird.

Although you drew a good bonus card with the Chestnut collared longspur, you needed to take an extra turn gaining food to do it, thus spending 2 turns to gain 9 points. You would have been better off just activating your grassland, which gives you significantly more than 4.5 points per turn.

Ans then, somewhat oddly, you kept the bonus card worth 2 points (Omnivore) instead of the one worth 6 (Oologist). Perhaps your plan is to play the fish crow, but that's still just 4 points for omnivore, and you're missing out on a 7-point activation of your grassland (Net 7; it's actually 8, but your opponent would also get an egg from Your lazuli bunting.)
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by FrankJones »

Round 4 is basically a math exercise. Calculate the net value of your highest-scoring habitat (usually the grassland), and then calculate whether playing a bird is worth it. If you need to take an extra turn to gain food to play a bird, the answer is almost certainly "no". But, if the Fish Crow had been played in the grassland at the end of round 3, gaining food would not have been necessary, although after the Fish Crow, I'm not sure there would have been much reason to play another bird anyway.
Ceaseless
Posts: 1303
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by Ceaseless »

Florrible wrote: 30 May 2025, 08:32 After reading the thread from Archisian I have been trying to take this game more seriously, watched the recommended Youtube videos about best starting birds and changed my techniques. I started to always build my wetland first whenever possible, the forest when the wetland wasn't immediately possible, and always left the grassland for last.
I had a small winning streak but now I am back to losing.
I just played a game where I felt like I had good cards including my starting hand, but somehow I still lost badly.

If anyone has the time and patience to review it and point out my errors (politely) it's here: https://boardgamearena.com/12/wingspan?table=680520102
You said you build your wetland and forest first, so why did you play Eastern Kingbird in the Grassland when you had no forest birds? You provided no support for your forest by the end of round 1 at all, when you should have had at least 2 forest birds by that point. As an aside, the flocking bonus Bird Counter is usually a better bonus than Platform builder since it is easier to set off with any spare flockers. The only reason to keep Platform Builder instead was if you could support it.

I'm going to suggest a hand fairly different than what the other two commenters said. I'd have kept Grebe, Kingbird, and Chimney Swift for the birds, an invertebrate and fish for food, and finally the Platform Builder since I have two Platform nests in my opening hand as well as a heavy drawing wetland bird plus another wetland bird by its side. Let's look at the differences my hand had from their choices and yours.

Eastern Kingbird is underestimated here. It's a 1 food forest bird that will likely score at least 1 more food right away, which will help a lot with getting out of the early game. There's no reason to sacrifice it for 1 more food because it will already provide that food and take up a key forest slot. As a Bowl nest it also puts you in the round 1 end of goal contest, worth a minimum of 1 point and a maximum of 4. That makes it fairly passable for points on top of its already key role. And because that food is invertebrate, it also provides key support for another underestimated bird in this hand, Chimney Swift.

Chimney Swift's double Invertebrate cost can make an opening hand awkward, especially when other birds take up the Invertebrate price. However, Grebe eats Fish and Kingbird will likely give at least 1 Invertebrate in time to play Swift. Odds are you'll be able to turn 1 Kingbird, turn 2 Grebe, turn 3 gain 1 Invertebrate, and by that point your opponent will have triggered Kingbird at least once for another. (They set it off in 1 turn in the game.) If they hadn't there was nothing stopping you from using the grassland to lay eggs then use Grebe to draw and have at least 1 card in hand as fodder to gain 2 Invertebrate in 1 turn. Given the state of the birdfeeder having 3 Invertebrate (and you can reroll the dice when they're gone), it's a fairly reliable food outlet.

Why do we want Swift at all? It supports the platform bonus as platform nest #2, helps all four end of round goals between its star nest plus ability to move rows, and serves as both your second forest bird and second wetland bird. Assuming your opponent knows what forest birds are, by turn 4 all of your early game objectives are met, to have at least 2 forest birds and a wetland bird (in this case you have 2, so you don't even need to spend eggs for cards.) You should be in a strong position to fight for the first two end of round goals and a promising hope for the other two. You have a playable forest and a strong wetland that gives you good chances to develop.
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by FrankJones »

Ceaseless wrote: 30 May 2025, 16:39

I'm going to suggest a hand fairly different than what the other two commenters said. I'd have kept Grebe, Kingbird, and Chimney Swift for the birds, an invertebrate and fish for food, and finally the Platform Builder since I have two Platform nests in my opening hand as well as a heavy drawing wetland bird plus another wetland bird by its side. Let's look at the differences my hand had from their choices and yours.

I haven't read the rest yet, but I think I see where you're going. The Chimney swift is a star nest, and its migratory power will help with the End-round goals that require birds in a specific habitat.

Good catch; I did not even consider the Chimney Swift because I personally dislike the migratory birds.

......

I just read the rest - yes, that's a good plan.

I still think a case for taking the bird flocker bonus card though. Even with 2 platforms in the starting hand, it still requires 2 more to get 4 points and 4 more to get 7. Whereas the bird flocker requires 2 more to get 4 points and 3 more to get 6.

Yes, there are a lot more platform nests than flock birds, but, for me, any given flock bird is a lot more likely to be desirable to play than a random platform nest. Though, there are a lot of strong platform birds also (on average they are probably the highest scoring next, I would think) .

Thoughts?
Ceaseless
Posts: 1303
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by Ceaseless »

FrankJones wrote: 30 May 2025, 17:17
Ceaseless wrote: 30 May 2025, 16:39

I'm going to suggest a hand fairly different than what the other two commenters said. I'd have kept Grebe, Kingbird, and Chimney Swift for the birds, an invertebrate and fish for food, and finally the Platform Builder since I have two Platform nests in my opening hand as well as a heavy drawing wetland bird plus another wetland bird by its side. Let's look at the differences my hand had from their choices and yours.

I haven't read the rest yet, but I think I see where you're going. The Chimney swift is a star nest, and its migratory power will help with the End-round goals that require birds in a specific habitat.

Good catch; I did not even consider the Chimney Swift because I personally dislike the migratory birds.

......

I just read the rest - yes, that's a good plan.

I still think a case for taking the bird flocker bonus card though. Even with 2 platforms in the starting hand, it still requires 2 more to get 4 points and 4 more to get 7. Whereas the bird flocker requires 2 more to get 4 points and 3 more to get 6.

Yes, there are a lot more platform nests than flock birds, but, for me, any given flock bird is a lot more likely to be desirable to play than a random platform nest. Though, there are a lot of strong platform birds also (on average they are probably the highest scoring next, I would think) .

Thoughts?
Yeah, don't underestimate migratory birds. The ability to say "I have a bird here" is nice, especially when it comes to early game goals where you simply need stuff to exist where you want it to fast. A generic forest bird and a migratory complete the basic early game goal of 2 forest 1 wetland all by themselves, rather than needing 3 birds. Chimney's synergy here in particular was wild though.

"There are a lot more platform than flock birds" is a dealbreaker when you're talking about only needing x more birds. The flocker's main edge was needing fewer birds to help offset its minority problem, when since this partiular opening hand cuts off a lot of the numbers advantage, it has to rely on specific scenarios like only getting 1 more bird to take the lead. There are a lot of good flockers, but many are early game related, so you may find that lots of them lose the quality war too. I don't have the groups memorized enough to do a full comparison offhand, but I'm sure both flockers and platinum nests have several good and bad birds. I'd say the quantity factor should win out. I wouldn't call it a major decision though, while the platinum nest is probably better more often the difference is not one I'd consider gamebreaking. Whether or not to keep Chimney Swift and Kingbird will matter far more.
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by FrankJones »

Ceaseless wrote: 30 May 2025, 18:49


Yeah, don't underestimate migratory birds. The ability to say "I have a bird here" is nice, especially when it comes to early game goals where you simply need stuff to exist where you want it to fast. A generic forest bird and a migratory complete the basic early game goal of 2 forest 1 wetland all by themselves, rather than needing 3 birds. Chimney's synergy here in particular was wild though.

"There are a lot more platform than flock birds" is a dealbreaker when you're talking about only needing x more birds. The flocker's main edge was needing fewer birds to help offset its minority problem, when since this partiular opening hand cuts off a lot of the numbers advantage, it has to rely on specific scenarios like only getting 1 more bird to take the lead. There are a lot of good flockers, but many are early game related, so you may find that lots of them lose the quality war too. I don't have the groups memorized enough to do a full comparison offhand, but I'm sure both flockers and platinum nests have several good and bad birds. I'd say the quantity factor should win out. I wouldn't call it a major decision though, while the platinum nest is probably better more often the difference is not one I'd consider gamebreaking. Whether or not to keep Chimney Swift and Kingbird will matter far more.
Agreed. Well, I got to 310 Elo in 21 games. That was the easy part, Now let's see how I fare restricting access to only players rated 300 or higher.
My current opponent is rated 150 points higher, and played an early migratory bird and a turkey vulture. A bold strategy; let's see if it works out. I liked my position, but so far I am drawing blanks with my card draws and I'm getting flustered.

Also, I've played hundreds and hundreds of games with all expansions that were available at the time I played, and these 21 games are my only games since the EE expansion that I have played without any. I'm still adjusting.

I actually find it really frustrating, and if I get stuck around 300 Elo I'll just quit, because I find the game so much more fun with the CHiffchaff, the eagles, the chaffinch, the extra bonus cards and end-round goals, the maned duck (which I expect will be banned along with the power 5 currently banned), Savi's Warbler, Audoin's Gull, the teal and yellow cards, and the much-improved game board.
FrankJones
Posts: 2447
Joined: 30 June 2024, 00:24

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by FrankJones »

What the heck?

My win% against players below 290: 60%.

My Win% against players above 290: 83%.
(half these were in the 450 neighborhood).

That makes no sense.
Ceaseless
Posts: 1303
Joined: 12 November 2022, 17:06

Re: What could I have done better in this game?

Post by Ceaseless »

FrankJones wrote: 30 May 2025, 20:12 What the heck?

My win% against players below 290: 60%.

My Win% against players above 290: 83%.
(half these were in the 450 neighborhood).

That makes no sense.
Maybe you played worse early on? That, and your sample size was pretty low. I skimmed your game history page and saw a few games where you scored under 80 points, which usually requires some mistakes to happen. I saw the openings of some of those and your choices were eyebrow raising to me without having to dig past the first turn.
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