I Want To Get Better At This Game But I Don't Know How

[Archisian]

I had someone concede a game a few days ago, they said that they had to go though. I can't recall that we had a huge points differential at that point it was still anyone's game, they might even have been ahead.

Usually I find that a bit odd like if you start a game surely you know how long it takes approximately and you know if you are able to see it to the end. If I only have 10 minutes before a meeting or something, I'm not going to start a game of Wingspan, I'll pick Azul or something else quick.

If someone concedes when I'm ahead, I still get frustrated that I didn't get to play the game until the end. It feels like an easy victory. I may be ahead but I still enjoy the challenge and uncertainty. In Wingspan specifically I don't think I ever have such a point differential that I am ever sure I can win. I've seen scores completely flip who is ahead, often around round 3 - both in my favour and not.

I usually concede when one of these things happen:

1. It's halfway through the game and my opponent is tied or ahead of me and has an good engine going and there's just no way I can match it with the turns left in the game because I don't have enough birds in the forest or my engine is weak or absent. I can tell that there just isn't enough turns to flip the script.

2. It's the end of the third round and my opponent is tied with me and has a lot more bonus cards than me.

3. It's the end of the third round and my opponent is ahead of me by more than 8-10+ pts and has more bonus cards than me.

4. My opponent achieved 3 or more bonus objectives and I only have one bonus card.

Essentially, if my engine isn't good and I have less than two bonus cards, there is just no chance to win if they are tied and or ahead of me and they have more bonus cards than me. At that point, I concede. I just don't see the point of continuing to play and knowing I have no hope to win. Okay, I might get like 3-5 points more to make it a 15 point thrashing instead of a 20 point one. Doesn't make a difference. A loss is a loss. And the bigger the margin, the more embarrassing it is. It's just my personal opinion though. I'm playing online, so I'm more invested in playing the game than it being a social experience. If it was an in person game, I'd probably just play it out because I'm there to both play AND have the social experience.

But that's just me. Everyone feels differently and I understand that.

I can link you some games I had where I conceded where it was clear that there was no way I could possibly win even by mid game.

[Ceaseless]

I had someone concede a game a few days ago, they said that they had to go though. I can't recall that we had a huge points differential at that point it was still anyone's game, they might even have been ahead.

Usually I find that a bit odd like if you start a game surely you know how long it takes approximately and you know if you are able to see it to the end. If I only have 10 minutes before a meeting or something, I'm not going to start a game of Wingspan, I'll pick Azul or something else quick.

If someone concedes when I'm ahead, I still get frustrated that I didn't get to play the game until the end. It feels like an easy victory. I may be ahead but I still enjoy the challenge and uncertainty. In Wingspan specifically I don't think I ever have such a point differential that I am ever sure I can win. I've seen scores completely flip who is ahead, often around round 3 - both in my favour and not.

I usually concede when one of these things happens:

1. It's halfway through the game and my opponent is tied or ahead of me and has an good engine going and there's just no way I can match it with the turns left in the game because I don't have enough birds in the forest or my engine is weak or absent. I can tell that there just isn't enough turns to flip the script.

2. It's the end of the third round and my opponent is tied with me and has a lot more bonus cards than me.

3. It's the end of the third round and my opponent is ahead of me by more than 8-10+ pts and has more bonus cards than me.

4. My opponent achieved 3 or more bonus objectives and I only have one bonus card.

Essentially, if my engine isn't good and I have less than two bonus cards, there is just no chance to win if they are tied and or ahead of me and they have more bonus cards than me. At that point, I concede. I just don't see the point of continuing to play and knowing I have no hope to win. Okay, I might get like 3-5 points more to make it a 15 point thrashing instead of a 20 point one. Doesn't make a difference. A loss is a loss. And the bigger the margin, the more embarrassing it is. It's just my personal opinion though. I'm playing online, so I'm more invested in playing the game than it being a social experience. If it was an in person game, I'd probably just play it out because I'm there to both play AND have the social experience.

But that's just me. Everyone feels differently and I understand that.

I can link you some games I had where I conceded where it was clear that there was no way I could possibly win even by mid game.

I wouldn't read too much into them having more bonuses than you. For all you know they could be 0s. Not sure how you'd ever know if they had 3 completed bonuses or not since you don't see what the bonuses are. They can complete potential bonus options, but there's no telling for sure if that's because they actually had that bonus or if they just ended up with that position naturally. It's one thing to concede when the viewable scoring potential is impossible to overcome, but the bonuses are an unknown. It's not a comfortable spot to be in, but it's not an impossible one either.

[Florrible]

I wouldn't read too much into them having more bonuses than you. For all you know they could be 0s. Not sure how you'd ever know if they had 3 completed bonuses or not since you don't see what the bonuses are. They can complete potential bonus options, but there's no telling for sure if that's because they actually had that bonus or if they just ended up with that position naturally. It's one thing to concede when the viewable scoring potential is impossible to overcome, but the bonuses are an unknown. It's not a comfortable spot to be in, but it's not an impossible one either.

I was going to say exactly the same thing. I have definitely had opponents pick up so many bonus cards and then by the end of the game maybe scored 3 point on one of them and nothing on the others. So I wouldn't see this as an "I will definitely lose" situation for me. Someone just conceded a game to me with just a handful of turns to go until the end (we were in round 4) and they had 3 bonus cards while I only had one. Our point difference at this stage was just 7. I replayed the last turn from their POV and only one of their bonus cards was going to score anything.

[FrankJones]

I usually concede if I know I'm going to lose because, for me personally, I just see it as a waste of my time and the only reason for me to stay would be for my opponent's own personal enjoyment at seeing how much they win by. Since they know they'll win (based on the situation happening in the game, of course), I just don't see why I need to provide them with any extra satisfaction with no benefit on my mind. So that's why I personally concede. Nothing against people who don't.

You never know what might happen.

I was playing a game with my spouse one time, and I was way behind. It was my second to last turn, and I was activating my grassland, which had a tuck and draw. I was playing on the app against my spouse. We were in the same room, and we would joke around while we played. I said out loud, "Well, this is hopeless. The only thing that can save me is the .... WHOOPING CRANE !!!"

As I got to the "whooping Crane" part of the sentence, I did in fact draw, with my one and final card draw, on a 1-in-200 chance, the Whooping Crane, which ended up being worth something like 20 or 23 points.

[FrankJones]

I had someone concede a game a few days ago, they said that they had to go though. I can't recall that we had a huge points differential at that point it was still anyone's game, they might even have been ahead.

Usually I find that a bit odd like if you start a game surely you know how long it takes approximately and you know if you are able to see it to the end. If I only have 10 minutes before a meeting or something, I'm not going to start a game of Wingspan, I'll pick Azul or something else quick.

If someone concedes when I'm ahead, I still get frustrated that I didn't get to play the game until the end. It feels like an easy victory. I may be ahead but I still enjoy the challenge and uncertainty. In Wingspan specifically I don't think I ever have such a point differential that I am ever sure I can win. I've seen scores completely flip who is ahead, often around round 3 - both in my favour and not.

I usually concede when one of these things happen:

1. It's halfway through the game and my opponent is tied or ahead of me and has an good engine going and there's just no way I can match it with the turns left in the game because I don't have enough birds in the forest or my engine is weak or absent. I can tell that there just isn't enough turns to flip the script.

2. It's the end of the third round and my opponent is tied with me and has a lot more bonus cards than me.

3. It's the end of the third round and my opponent is ahead of me by more than 8-10+ pts and has more bonus cards than me.

4. My opponent achieved 3 or more bonus objectives and I only have one bonus card.

Essentially, if my engine isn't good and I have less than two bonus cards, there is just no chance to win if they are tied and or ahead of me and they have more bonus cards than me. At that point, I concede. I just don't see the point of continuing to play and knowing I have no hope to win. Okay, I might get like 3-5 points more to make it a 15 point thrashing instead of a 20 point one. Doesn't make a difference. A loss is a loss. And the bigger the margin, the more embarrassing it is. It's just my personal opinion though. I'm playing online, so I'm more invested in playing the game than it being a social experience. If it was an in person game, I'd probably just play it out because I'm there to both play AND have the social experience.

But that's just me. Everyone feels differently and I understand that.

I can link you some games I had where I conceded where it was clear that there was no way I could possibly win even by mid game.

Making assumptions of defeat based on number of bonus cards seems questionable to me. As already noted, they could be zeroes. And, maybe this is a bit of a reach, but if you're known for conceding in such situations, an opponent could just "bluff" a bonus card. Sometimes my opponent plays a card that seemingly cannot possibly be for any purpose other than a bonus card. And I say to myself, "Oh, opponent has either rodentologist or falconer, or both".

Since the bonus cards are bizarrely discarded face-up, the opponent wouldn't have to risk faking a bonus card that you discarded.

[FrankJones]

Concede ???

NEVER !!!

https://boardgamearena.com/9/wingspan?table=680711007

Play your cards, lay your eggs, and hope for the best. If I had to wager, I would have bet heavily against myself, facing 3 bonus cards AND an unexpected end-of-round goal swipe.

Yet, I prevailed.

[FrankJones]

Just to be clear, I think I got very lucky to hold on for that win. I figured for sure my opponent had 12 points of bonus cards for the win.

I generally dislike the sandhill Crane without support. (Where was the spotted towhee? or a CROW? I have not had a crow in ANY of my games. The crows are still in the deck, right ?? I'm joking, I know they are.)

I struggled to get my wetland going. And not being able to lay more than 3 eggs in my wetland was frustrating.

I struggled with my starting hand because I wasn't sure whether I should keep 2 birds or 3. I couldn't come up with a good plan that involved keeping only 2 of them.

My starting choice of bonus card was questionable - I figured the "grassland only" would be worth 3 points, and I knew the bird flocker might end up being only 2, but I think it has a higher upside and I was willing to gamble. I generally find it impossible to get the high bonus on the grassland only bonus card without making inefficient plays that cost me points and make it difficult to deal with end-round goals.

And, every time I play the Meadowlark or the Lazuli Bunting, I run out of egg spaces. I only played that bird to take the End-round goal, which I guess ended up working out.

Thoughts? As can be seen from my post, I have no idea what my true Elo is. Likely not higher than 500 util I clean up some of my sloppy plays.

So, I welcome and appreciate any feedback.

[Ceaseless]

Concede ???

NEVER !!!

https://boardgamearena.com/9/wingspan?table=680711007

Play your cards, lay your eggs, and hope for the best. If I had to wager, I would have bet heavily against myself, facing 3 bonus cards AND an unexpected end-of-round goal swipe.

Yet, I prevailed.

Just to be clear, I think I got very lucky to hold on for that win. I figured for sure my opponent had 12 points of bonus cards for the win.

I generally dislike the sandhill Crane without support. (Where was the spotted towhee? or a CROW? I have not had a crow in ANY of my games. The crows are still in the deck, right ?? I'm joking, I know they are.)

I struggled to get my wetland going. And not being able to lay more than 3 eggs in my wetland was frustrating.

I struggled with my starting hand because I wasn't sure whether I should keep 2 birds or 3. I couldn't come up with a good plan that involved keeping only 2 of them.

My starting choice of bonus card was questionable - I figured the "grassland only" would be worth 3 points, and I knew the bird flocker might end up being only 2, but I think it has a higher upside and I was willing to gamble. I generally find it impossible to get the high bonus on the grassland only bonus card without making inefficient plays that cost me points and make it difficult to deal with end-round goals.

And, every time I play the Meadowlark or the Lazuli Bunting, I run out of egg spaces. I only played that bird to take the End-round goal, which I guess ended up working out.

Thoughts? As can be seen from my post, I have no idea what my true Elo is. Likely not higher than 500 util I clean up some of my sloppy plays.

So, I welcome and appreciate any feedback.

I tend to post from the start https://boardgamearena.com/gamereview?table=680711007 instead of the end so it's easier to view the actual game replay. As per usual, I'll name moves by move # in the replay to make it easier to follow.

My opening would have been the Yellow-Bellied, Kite, and Tern keeping invertebrate and fruit with the flocking bonus since it's more independent. I have my two forest birds and 1 wetland bird and that's enough for me. Cassin's is a nice bird, but it's not so great I'll break the fundamental for it, I want my steady opening base more. Even the edge Cassin's has for end of round goals 2 and 3 won't sway me. I won't go so far to claim my hand is better in this case, there's pros and cons to each, but that's where my preferences lie.

Since you decided to go a different route, I'm going to criticize picking the flocking bonus over the Grassland bonus when you already have 1 grassland bird, meaning just 1 more gets you 3 points. That makes it more independent and higher scoring, and they even have a slight population advantage to boot. These bonuses specialize in minimum bird gains, their low population usually means maximum scoring isn't expected unless you already had quite the start with them. You didn't have an opening to expect the flock bird's ceiling, if anything you were close to the Grassland bird's ceiling with their slightly higher population and existing 1 bird.

As an aside, when you played Tern on move 14, it's possible that using an invertebrate is slightly better since you keep making them off of Yellow-Bellied anyways, meaning you're unlikely to run short on those, so you might end up finding a random fish better. No strong feelings either way.

Move 46. No love for the Tanager? There's fruit in the feeder and your effect gets the invertebrate, I'd suspect you'd have enough gain foods to make the effect pay off.

Move 78. You're trying to keep gaining food to get places, at this point you should have just played Grosbeak and done a 2 for 1 trade, its effect will get that food back and then some. There's your Sandhill Crane support. The difference in development should trump the 3-point difference between a tie or someone winning.

Move 125. I'd probably sacrifice 1 food to keep 1 seed for Crane when playing Meadowlark.

[FrankJones]

Whoops, that's my error regarding the game link. I thought that any copy and paste of the game URL links to the starting position of the game. I assume the end-game link occurred because that's when I copied the link, rather than during the replay.

I'll take a look at the points you mentioned, but I'm nearly certain I spent 3 worms to play the meadowlark, saving 2 grain. If that didn't happen, then the game mis-clicked on me. I recall that it defaulted to using a gran, and I pressed "reset food" to make it unselect the grain. I'll review it.

I don't think the Turkey Vulture helped me opponent much. I know you said you're okay with it, but no help toward the bonus card or the End-round goals. I suppose we could calculate the expected value of the points I Passed up on by not going for the predator kills; perhaps it would have been an EV of 2 points.

[FrankJones]

Interesting. I didn't even consider the Kite. It just seems like a terrible bird. But, I ended up playing a bird that was pretty much identical, so, point taken. Two in the forest, one in the water, and I had it in my opening hand. Perhaps I am still not adjusted to this format (lame excuse, but muscle memory is difficult to overcome sometimes. I'm very accustomed to keeping 2 birds expecting to draw the birds I need.)


The bonus card - agreed, once I took the Cassin's sparrow, the grassland bonus card makes sense. Prairie manager. One more qualifying bird for 3 points, and 3 more for 7 points, compared to one more flock bird for 2 points and 3 more for 6 points. And higher population, as you noted.

Turn 14 - yeah, good point. Why did I spend a worm when I was likely to end up with a bunch of worms?

Turn 46 - yes, no love for the Tanager. Personal bias, I suppose. I do not like that bird. 3 food, and a brown power that can fail. Also, I wanted (wishful thinking?) something that would give me grain. And the tanager was no help to the EOR goals or my bonus card. But I'm willing to consider playing it next time I'm in a similar situation.

I understand the reasoning. In multiple instances, I was relying on drawing useful cards from the face-down deck when I had reasonably playable birds without needing to gamble.

Move 78: Here, I definitely agree. The Grosbeak is expensive, but it allows me to get grain, along with the option to trade an extra card (which I'll likely have at some point) for another food, potentially getting 5 food in one turn.

Even though this was turn-based, I was rushing my moves for some reason. Lame excuse. I'm not reviewing all my options and considering different options. I'm thinking two or three moves ahead but not adapting or adjusting to new information.

move 125: You are correct. That's a serious blunder. I have no idea what I was thinking. It was my 5th grassland bird (horned Lark) for which I paid 3 worms to save a grain.

Thank you for the review and analysis. I had a winning hand; made some misplays, and got a bit lucky in the end. I won't get near 500 unless I clean up the sloppy play and take off the tunnel vision that causes me to get locked in to specific plays while not examining other options.