Impossible bluff

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Bsness
Posts: 3
Joined: 12 September 2023, 05:37

Impossible bluff

Post by Bsness »

Is it considered a valid bluff if it's impossible that the next player has the supposed card? I would say it follows the main rule of finesse "what happens if I don't play?" And is therefore valid. But had a disagreement so I'll ask others opinions here.

For example, A clues m5 on D's hand with m3 on the board. B has w1,y5,y3,y2. W1 is not clued, but y5,y3,y2 are all numbered and B's hand was just clued yellow, negating w1 of yellow. So, there's no possible way B has m4 and B knows that. But no other hands have m4 (or any playables). B has to know it's a bluff and play to avoid a bomb. Is this a good clue?
Malo77
Posts: 59
Joined: 24 July 2022, 15:05

Re: Impossible bluff

Post by Malo77 »

Is it a real case ?
It all depends on the whole situation and the board, please provide more info and a link to the game.

I assume M is multicolor (not a separate color)

Is W1 playable ?
Is one of the Y5/Y3/Y2 playable or junk card to drop ?

What was the response given to the Y clue received by B ?

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If B has no playable/dropable card, it would have been safer to let him do the bluff i suppose.

But if B knows he has no matching card, he should let the bluff go through and let C respond.
But C may have a doubt if it is a Bluff or a Layered .. and followup may be complicated.
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Romain672
Posts: 1348
Joined: 05 April 2016, 13:53

Re: Impossible bluff

Post by Romain672 »

Hi, in summary try to find another easy interpretation. If you can't, play as a known bluff.

Here is my detailled explanation:
- firstly (obviously) you need to take the point of view of the previous player. If that previous player got two g3 they doesn't know and you got finessed for g3, you need to do what that previous player wanted you to do.

- if those two g3 are in another hand, then you both knew that you couldn't be finessed by g3. But the player who hold both g3 doesn't know that. At lower level of trust, you should double check that g3 isn't playable right now (it's not in finesse position, and it's not layered if you play with those) and you should usually just play your finesse position to 'play g3' and resolve the bluff. At higher level of trust, you should check what happen if you don't answer it. Is there a way to make the clue work anyway if you or other player play something else. If that's the case, you should check the reason for your previous player to do that clue. If you find none, the clue look too risky to be done, and I would just play g3. If you find some, you could be taking that other line instead. More the game is on a bad shape, and more effecient you want to be, or more risks you wanna take.

- if that bluff is impossible because all your cards are clued or because you got negative green in your whole hand, then you should check what happen if you don't answer. The most common clue of that type (order of players: Alice>Bob>Cathy>Donald, with Alice giving the initial clue) is Alice who clue Donald green on g4 with g2 on the stacks. Bob has negative green and play something unrelated. Cathy then should play her finesse position. Note that even if that clue is logical, and so should be legal with bga's conventions, it's not with hgroup (out of position bluff caused too much troubles, people were not enough good to track them, and so it was put illegal (remember for those in 4 player you need 3 players to agree it's an out of position bluff, so even 90% success lead to 27% of bombs)).
If that clue lead to something bad, you should play as a known bluff.

- now let's assume all players know they can't be finessed by g3, and they could all ignore the clue without causing anything bad. There is still one question left: why does that clue happen in the first place. And that still usually ask for a blind play. Since anyone can answer it that can be easily more complicated. But usually if Cathy has a finesse position playable and Bob has a (non finesse position) playable, Bob could just play his other card, and let Cathy answer the clue. Bob should find a reason for it.
Alternatively, that clue could be to resynchronise the team. Maybe something weird was going on before, and that clue make sure that everyone on the table know what happen (and I suppose Bob's finesse position is trash or playable). You need to be on a good shape for that clue to be done though. That could be common in the start of end game, when people start to know that everything is fine whatever thing you are doing. And so reclueing something which could be tricky is pretty safe.

The most commun 'reason for it' is Alice having too many plays/too many high cards on the suit which seemed to have the higher chance to be finished last, especially after mid game.

There is so many stuff I could talk about in hgroup's conventions. Giving useless clue to convey various meaning is something pretty commun in hgroup. But in bga, that's extremely limited. Bga stick to what seem logical and only 'clue which make sense', but once you move to the extra territory, you find so many weird things. Bga uses trash push and trash pull in end game per example. Hgroup use them rarely in end of mid game but is legal all the time.
For example, A clues m5 on D's hand with m3 on the board. B has w1,y5,y3,y2. W1 is not clued, but y5,y3,y2 are all numbered and B's hand was just clued yellow, negating w1 of yellow. So, there's no possible way B has m4 and B knows that. But no other hands have m4 (or any playables). B has to know it's a bluff and play to avoid a bomb. Is this a good clue?
Here we are totally on my third point. Bob check another interpretation (mainly in Cathy's finesse position), and since they find none, they play as a known bluff.
If they don't play, Cathy should be playing their finesse position.
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