Beneficiary(E097) with Scales (B049)

[handicrafts]

Beneficiary
If this is your 3rd occupation, you may immediately play another occupation by paying 1 food, and/or play 1 minor improvement by paying its cost.

Scales (B049)
Each time you play an improvement or occupation in front of you, if you then have the same number of improvements and occupations in play, you gain 2 food.

I already knew about the interaction between Task Artisan and Scales, so I understood that if, after placing a card, I have the same number of occupations and improvements, I should gain 2 food for that placement.

But Beneficiary doesn't seem to grant 6 food in that situation.

Here's what happened:
I had 2 occupations and 3 improvements. I played Beneficiary, which let me play 2 more occupations and 1 improvement. Now I have 4 occupations and 4 improvements in total. I placed 3 cards and ended up with equal numbers of occupations and improvements, so I thought I should get 6 food (2 for each card). But I didn't.

How does it actually work? Can you clarify how that interaction works?

[alexwjb]

My understanding is that:

- When a card is played, its wording is resolved without interruption
- So only after the Beneficiary occ + minor is played should Scales check the situation
- And indeed you should get 6 food

If this is right, it's a bug. This can happen with the Beneficiary + stuff happens when you occ cards. See this thread for another example (Acerbic's post) - https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=169041. In that case, Ed Bonus was giving the wrong resources when Beneficiary + extra occ was played.

How much food did you actually get? And maybe Acerbic can shed some light on why it's happening that way.

[handicrafts]

Actually, I got 4 foods. I agree with you.
I saw the thread you mentioned — it helped me to clarify my thoughts. Thanks for replying!

[lezurichois]

I was also wondering about the scales + beneficiary interaction. It also gave me 4 food when I played it and ended up with the same number of minors and occupations

[-Lieven-]

I think getting 4 food is absolutely right. I'll explain why.

If you have 2 occupations and 3 improvements, then play Beneficiary, which let you play 2 more occupations and one improvement.

The following happens:
You play the first occupation. You then have 3 occupations and 3 improvements, so you have the same number of improvements and occupations in play, and receive 2 food.
You play the second occupation. You then have 4 occupations and 3 improvements in play. Because the number of improvements and occupations isn't equal, you get nothing.
You play the improvement. You then have 4 occupations and 4 improvements. You get 2 food because the number of improvements and occupations is equal again.

The whole thing has nothing to do with the number of cards played, the only thing taken into account is same number of improvements and occupations on the table. I guess you misunderstood the text written on the Scales card, in my opinion it is totally clear, it can't be misinterpreted.

[alexwjb]

I think getting 4 food is absolutely right. I'll explain why.

If you have 2 occupations and 3 improvements, then play Beneficiary, which let you play 2 more occupations and one improvement.

The following happens:
You play the first occupation. You then have 3 occupations and 3 improvements, so you have the same number of improvements and occupations in play, and receive 2 food.
You play the second occupation. You then have 4 occupations and 3 improvements in play. Because the number of improvements and occupations isn't equal, you get nothing.
You play the improvement. You then have 4 occupations and 4 improvements. You get 2 food because the number of improvements and occupations is equal again.

The whole thing has nothing to do with the number of cards played, the only thing taken into account is same number of improvements and occupations on the table. I guess you misunderstood the text written on the Scales card, in my opinion it is totally clear, it can't be misinterpreted.

AFAIK this is not how the game publishers asked for the rules to be interpreted, and thus not how BGA handles the situation.

The publishers say that when you play a card, the card text resolves immediately, i.e with no "gap" for other cards to proc whatsoever. Let's take a simpler situation to make it clear. You have Scales and one occupation in play, then you play Task Artisan (which reads: When you play this card and each time a stone accumulation space appears on a round space in the preparation phase, you get 1 wood and a "Minor Improvement" action).

The flow of what then happens is:

1) You play Task Artisan
2) Immediately, i.e. at exactly the same time as playing Task Artisan, you play a minor improvement in front of you.
3) Scales triggers after playing Task Artisan - and because the minor improvement was played at the same time as Task Artisan, also after playing the minor improvement.
4) Scales sees that there are an equal number of occs and improvements in front of you and gives you 2f for each of the 2 cards you just played, for 4 food total.

So the issue with the OP's scenario is that getting only 4 food appears to be inconsistent with the general implementation, and other similar cases. That's why it seems to be a bug.

I should say I also originally thought it would work the way you lay out above! But it's not what the publishers wanted. There would also be a whole load of consequences to introducing a timing phase between a card being played, and the cards effects actually happening.


Some references:

Lumin's unofficial compendium: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WUl ... it?tab=t.0 ("Occupations which let the player immediately build/play an improvement (or vice-versa, e.g. Task Artisan A096) only triggers Scales after both cards are played, thereby giving 0 or 4 food.")

Forum post which states the publishers confirmed this: https://boardgamearena.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=144321

[-Lieven-]

Sorry, but if I understand you well, you should get only 2 food and not 6.

I'll try to explain.
You have already played 3 improvements and 2 occupations.

You play the Beneficiary. You then have an equal number of improvements and occupations. Nothing happens though, because as you say the check whether improvements and occupations played are equal only happens when all cards have been played.

You play another occupation. Nothing happens again, because not all cards have been played.

You play an improvement. You now have 4 improvements and 4 occupations (equal number), and because it's the last card in the sequence, you get 2 food.